Author Topic: Is mercy karma's loophole?  (Read 14562 times)

Namaste

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Is mercy karma's loophole?
« on: June 22, 2011, 05:37:31 PM »
Could it be that by now guilty karma is so deep within us, because it is so deep within our parents and within their parents and so on, that our fields are too full of weeds and as we uproot sanskaras there are more growing behind our backs?  In other words - is practice good intentioned but hopeless?  And if it's hopeless alone, if two of us share practice, does it become less hopeless? 


Quardamon

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 06:25:48 PM »
Like with plants, a bit: You can weed what is above ground. Weeding what is under the ground - the roots - is more work and more effective.
If you clear out your personal stuff, you do good work, and you gain some freedom. If you have done most of that and keep in cleansing and transforming, then you find that you are processing stuff of your parents.
So, in this inner work, you are not jobless very soon.
For those who manage to process the dung that the parents left behind, they can start processing stuff of grandparents, friends, neighbours.
And to prevent one from having the feeling that one is holy after having done that, there is always bigger groups and history of the own group.

So all in all: do not focus too much on the work. Do the work that is before you - I mean sitting on a cushion, reading, asking questions like the one you do now. And apart from that enjoy the weather, share your music on the internet, hang out with family, and so one.

It certainly is not hopeless. There is progress. And yes, it is a good thing to develop the art of liking to uproot sanskaras - just like it is good to develop a liking for a garden if you have one.

May you enjoy life.

P.S.: I am convinced, that sharing practice helps in many ways. among others with the effectiveness. There is a Christian saying - or maybe it is from the Bilbe, that Jesus sais: "If two or more are together in my name, I will be amidst of them." That is in the spirit of what I mean.

If I would hear the sounds of the horns of evil, I would struggle to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture that evil is part of. It is like with the story on fear posted i the last week: if you focus on it, it grows. So: look past it, and stay kind yourself.

If there is fighting necessary, may it be respectful.

P.P.S.: Hey, why do you use the word "mercy" in the title? I do not understand.

Morning Dew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 06:47:04 PM »
Cole my dear friend :)
you are trying to look at the whole picture and of course it is so overwhelmingly discouraging to see that huge pile of dung infront of your door. "How am I to remove all that?" is a natural reaction YET nothing will happen unless you take a shovel and wheelbarrow and start removing it one wheelbarrow after another, one by one the pile will be smaller and smaller.
Do not loose yourself in the BIG PICTURE of LIFE and BEYOND. This too is daydreaming :)
Instead be aware of each step you take on this very path you'r on.

"Put one foot infront of the other"  :D

Put One Foot In Front Of The Other (lyrics)

May you be happy and free from suffering my dear friend

Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 06:59:55 PM »

You start to weed ... more weed is coming ... you weed more ... more weed is coming ... you buy a weeding machine ... more weed is coming ... you are away for a weekend only and the whole place looks like you never weeded before ....

... but stick to it and it will be a garden in the end. Every gardener tells us that.
I have no reasons to disbelieve them, especially when I "see their gardens" sometimes.  :)

But it can be a bit frustrating sometimes. Still, I'd rather die weeding than to give in ...

Metta, Stefan
anicca

Namaste

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 08:17:37 PM »
I agree the choice is always good or wrong, but could wrong be so subtle and all-pervasive by now that we are all lost?  For example how BBC and CNN tell us to care about Japan, and maybe we do in some small morsel of ourself, but they latch on to that morsel to pull us away from the idea that the news is telling us what to care about..

Is cleaning suffering linear like that - clean myself, clean my grandparents and friends, etc?..  are there subtler seeds growing as one moves about cleaning, deep seeds from grandparents we didn't catch and are now sure we would have caught, deeper seeds growing all the while..  I used mercy because maybe it is to the point where all one can do is plead for mercy because the suffering is too great, mercy being the only good choice left.



Masauwu

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 08:33:23 PM »
This comes from a thinking point of view and not actual realization, but this is how i see it:

We are not in the business of weeding and getting better at it and uprooting at a rate higher than the growth rate. Our goal is to understand, our purpose is to see clearly. There are no weeds. There are things that we call weeds, but they are not weeds as in bad unwanted things. With practice we learn to understand that they are not us, they are not permanent, and they are not good or bad, they just are. Accepting it intelectually has little to no value, but a direct understanding/realization would create a shift in the way our mind operates. And these gradual shifts come as a result of the practice of awareness.

Once you walk on the noble eightfold path, what is the point to worry about karma. Do good things, don`t do bad things, don`t cause suffering to others. The past is the past and it`s gone, just work with the present to get good karma for the future and not worry in the future when this present is the past. Or something like that.  :)
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

Morning Dew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 08:52:30 PM »
Ultimately behind all this mind pondering is just sensations and vibrations  :D and no mercy, wrong or right actualy exhists.

The Doer Mind is always on the run giving no space to the Knower Mind. The Doer Mind is linear, while the Knower Mind sees things going in circles all the time. So, why trying to go anywhere or reach anything if all is circular :)  ? It is enough to sit in one spot and wait for it to pass by. Its something to do with how the whole Universe is governed in a circular manner. What goes around comes around. Its has something to do with the Moon too.

Before going so deep as you are trying now Cole, try to stop looking at the huge pile of puzzles to sort them into a picture that makes sense instead focus onto one puzzle piece at a time :)  Each puzzle piece counts. Dont Do the puzzles rather gaze at them and Know the next piece. Each noticed sensation, vibration is one puzzle piece placed in its empty spot. These puzzle pieces go around and come around, you dont have to chase them, let them come instead, if you miss them KNOW they will come again. Keep calming the DOER which is always on the run for chasing and achiveing.

Feel the Earth circeling around the Sun, feel the Moon circeling around the Earth. You can miss this and even if you do no worries here mate, they will come around again :) its all governed by the same law. Yin-Yang bro is not a concept but the actuality of things. In Shamatha one realises this Truth actualy.

Good man for keeping it up  :)

May no harm come to you may you be at peace

Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 04:27:03 AM »
Ultimately behind all this mind pondering is just sensations and vibrations  :D and no mercy, wrong or right actualy exhists.

hi Dusko,

Just ?  I don't disagree with your summing up, but those things you say are just sensations and vibrations, also happen to be the manifestation of the very mystery of existence itself. :)


Cole, for me gratitude is better than certitude, and mercy better than judgement. Karma; understanding that is like chasing the wind, make it your friend instead and fly a kite!


Is life a beautiful mystery or horrible accident?  Follow the answer which gives peace back to the source.

A

« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 04:30:29 AM by Andrew »
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Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 05:56:14 AM »
I was thinking about my own answer to my question, and I realise that I vacillate between the 2!

Some days life is a beautiful mystery and I sit enjoy exploring that and seeing it's nature, some days it is a horrible accident, and I sit enjoying exploring it's nature! The pleasure of letting go is the same regardless, so both answers are useful depending on circumstances. Gratitude that there is an Ancient Path  is better than certitude of the reasons for the need for that path!.

I like Alexander the Great's solution to the Gordian Knot as well...
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Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 06:39:03 AM »
These puzzle pieces go around and come around, you dont have to chase them, let them come instead, if you miss them KNOW they will come again. Keep calming the DOER which is always on the run for chasing and achiveing.

Feel the Earth circeling around the Sun, feel the Moon circeling around the Earth. You can miss this and even if you do no worries here mate, they will come around again :) its all governed by the same law. Yin-Yang bro is not a concept but the actuality of things. In Shamatha one realises this Truth actualy.


I like this a lot Dusko.
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Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 07:12:09 AM »


I agree the choice is always good or wrong, but could wrong be so subtle and all-pervasive by now that we are all lost?


No.
anicca

Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 07:33:29 AM »
I used mercy because maybe it is to the point where all one can do is plead for mercy because the suffering is too great, mercy being the only good choice left.

Cole, this statement makes me think you are going through some dark stuff at the moment, Are you? I don't want to be all philosophical if what you are really saying is 'help!, I need some hope here!' 

It may be no comfort to hear that I have done plenty of pleading from a very young age, and perhaps it is why I am 'getting somewhere' or perhaps it isn't. Here is the crux of it though; If you plead, make sure you believe you are being heard and answered.
Pleading on it's own, without hope or faith in an answer is called 'depression', pleading with hope in an answer is called 'redemption' or 'salvation'. That took me a long time to see.

Andrew
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Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 10:37:23 AM »


'help!, I need some hope here!'


Our biggest hope during the dark night is that we are wrong in our fears. And we are!
"Right-Wrong" is a judgement. Who judges? Imperfect people like us.
Do we have the competency to judge? No.

Garden example:
We want to grow spinach, but the nettles' taking over, no matter how hard we weed.
Isn't that wrong? Even "bad", maybe??
No. You simply didn't know that eating nettles is much healthier than eating spinach (it really is, btw).
With this knowledge the impression of "wrong" turns into "right" immediately. And effortlessly!
Just try to find the positive angle to look at ... whatsoever.

Star Wars example: Cole, if the "Dark Side of the Force" had taken over already, the Vaders would have let us know beyond any doubt ...  ;)

Mercy example: don't plead for mercy. who to? but if you have mercy for the stupid, the cruel, the mean, the slayers, the monsters, them who-will-not-see-the-light ... mercy for their lostness, for their loneliness, for their drama that twisted them to the dark side ... then the world will feel more "right" to you.

Metta to you, Cole, may your heart be open all the time!

Stefan
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Jeeprs

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 11:43:54 AM »
Could it be that by now guilty karma is so deep within us, because it is so deep within our parents and within their parents and so on, that our fields are too full of weeds and as we uproot sanskaras there are more growing behind our backs?  In other words - is practice good intentioned but hopeless?  And if it's hopeless alone, if two of us share practice, does it become less hopeless?

It's a serious question. I think if practice arises solely from intention, as a deliberate action, then it is indeed doomed to fail. That which forms the intention is very much the source of the problems. But there is another element of the being - that which simply sees as it is. Perhaps this is the element that is free. So really the only intention that is necessary is to turn up for practice. 'Turning up' is making yourself available for the seeing to do the work, and I guess part of what it has to see, is the way that it identifies with this guilty karma.

I don't know if you are familiar with the Poem of Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch, but it might be helpful. When the succession of the monastery had to be decided, the chief monk, who had been groomed for the role, wrote a poem on the wall of the monastery demonstrating his understanding of Dharma:

"Our body is the Bodhi-tree,
And our mind a mirror bright.
Carefully we wipe them hour by hour,
And let no dust alight."


Hui Neng, however, when he had this poem read to him  - he was illiterate - immediately composed another one, which he asked a monk to write on the wall:

"There really is no Bodhi-tree,
Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
Since everything is emptiness,
Where can the dust alight?
"

Hui Neng was recognized by the Fifth Patriarch as the true Dharma Successor on the basis of this verse, and after long and hard struggle, became the next Patriarch. You can read more of the story here.

I have always found this an extremely profound and moving Dharma teaching. I hope it is of assistance to you.

Be well.

Morning Dew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 02:26:17 PM »
Cole such thoughts are mare distractions in my humble opinion. There is a reason behind practicing meditation in 4 diferent position: sitting, walking, standing, laying so we are able to cover the whole day with mindfulness. We usualy practice only sitting and even this is irregular at times for some, no?

Resume your daily practice, be aware of your breathing let thoughts, emotion and perceptions pass, keep bringing your awareness back to the breathing. That is all your duty as a meditator all the rest is Mara. Bring this awareness you practice into the actual life while walking on the street, standing in the queue, sitting on the buss, laying in your bed ... Etc...

Such pondering can only discourage you.

Cole you must practice alot to calm that Doer Mind of yours. By alot i mean at least once a day 40-60 minutes.
There is no way around it. Keep the distractions at bay by always looking at them through the breathing.

Simplify. One step at a time.

Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 06:35:18 PM »


Cole such thoughts are mare distractions in my humble opinion.


just for the cheap laugh of it I might add:
such thoughts are nightmare distractions ...  ;)

oooch, Stefan ....
anicca

Namaste

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 02:39:47 AM »
Very true, Andy..  God always listens.  I forget that at times but when I fall deep enough into delusions I remember I am not in control but God is and moves through to us if we open up to him, however that may be - parable, coincidence, relationships, etc.. 

No.

Do you mean it could not even be possible that it be that way, or that it is just not that way at this point in time?

Cole such thoughts are mare distractions in my humble opinion. There is a reason behind practicing meditation in 4 diferent position: sitting, walking, standing, laying so we are able to cover the whole day with mindfulness. We usualy practice only sitting and even this is irregular at times for some, no?

Resume your daily practice, be aware of your breathing let thoughts, emotion and perceptions pass, keep bringing your awareness back to the breathing. That is all your duty as a meditator all the rest is Mara. Bring this awareness you practice into the actual life while walking on the street, standing in the queue, sitting on the buss, laying in your bed ... Etc...

Such pondering can only discourage you.

Cole you must practice alot to calm that Doer Mind of yours. By alot i mean at least once a day 40-60 minutes.
There is no way around it. Keep the distractions at bay by always looking at them through the breathing.

Simplify. One step at a time.

Contemplation has its' place I think but yes mindfulness is the first and last step whether or not all this thinking leads to any actual conclusion, and this isn't contemplation at this point anyway just a buncha overanalyzation  :D

Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 06:42:35 AM »
Cole
I went through a very long period of these type of speculations, which like Dusko said, are a path to frustration (as your mind starts to explode!) but, if I had not gone there, then many of the things I now accept to be true, or part of the path, would be hidden to me. So don't stop if you are getting something from it.

I can see, intellectually at least, the depth of mystery going on around me, and as I know that I have explored just about every angle I could possibly have thought of, I'm happy to just sit with it knowing that it truly is a wonderous thing.

The true path, like my christian upbringing taught me, is a very narrow way. It is so easy to fall into nihilism, world negation, and general negativity as the mind looses it's grip on understanding anything. That is the basic fear we are trying to calm, WE DON"T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON AND THAT SCARES THE BEJESUS OUT OF US!! :D- Insecurity.

I remember spinning out on infinite possibilites expressed in infinite ways in an eternal construct for months and getting really stuck and depressed realising that there was no true freedom of will. But the simple fact remained, there sure seemed to be freedom of will!

From my reading of the buddhist tradition, the heart of it is not actually what the shell presents it to be. I find the best approach is as a mystic. KEEP THE MYSTERY ALIVE!! 'Certainty' is not the road to freedom, though we would love it to be black and white, it is not.

Another thing that may help you that helped me recently is; The mind is not the CPU modern thought says it is, the mind is actually a storage and retrieval device capable of limited comparison duties.  A disc drive! This made a huge difference to how far I will push speculations these days...have a think about the implications for yourself.

Inspriation and insight over rote answers. Remember this also, the Ancient Path is leading us to something which we, by definition, cannot understand. Trust is the key and letting peace guide you thinking.

A
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Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 07:02:15 AM »

Quote from: Cole

I agree the choice is always good or wrong, but could wrong be so subtle and all-pervasive by now that we are all lost?


No.


Do you mean it could not even be possible that it be that way, or that it is just not that way at this point in time?


 :) ...
1) Universe is dual. "Right and wrong" are not two different things in reality. Like you cannot have only one side of a coin without the other side, you cannot have wrong without right, bad without good, evil without holy ... thats the intellectual reasoning.
2) Just wanted to add my opinioin, since reasoning had taken place already.
3) I wanted to give you a firm answer, because the insecurity within us all gets diminished by firm answers on questions like yours. When paranoia keeps sneaking up and tries to argue with me ... I just tell it off, never go into detail. In christian mythologic terms: no use in arguing with the sulphuric seducer ....  ;)
4) Karma doesn't work that way. Matthew wrote something about the misinterpretations of the karmic concept some years ago .... didn't find it in a hurry ... so, in my words:
It will never be your fault that Mr. Humptydumpty did some bad things a couple of centuries ago.
5) Meditating on your question, emptying the mind, stopping thinking, letting truth arise: ...
... I get the answer of "no", then ...  :)


Very true, Andy.  God always listens.


Yes.

Metta, Stefan


« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 07:04:21 AM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
anicca

Morning Dew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 07:43:21 AM »
Quote
  God always listens.

When saying God you actualy mean Santa Claus, no?

May we all have courage to let silence be.

Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 08:00:31 AM »

When saying God you actualy mean Santa Claus, no?


Just because you don't understand a certain metapher there's no need for you to make fun of it.
It is ok that you treasure your non-religiosity. It is not ok that you go around bashing at everything you don't like/ understand/ see different. Please try to be tolerant. Be generous. You might even translate the metapher into your own language and then understand that you are not saying anything different. You just use different words and pictures.


May we all have courage to let silence be.


Did you;)

Metta, Stefan
anicca

Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 08:09:08 AM »
Quote
  God always listens.

When saying God you actualy mean Santa Claus, no?

May we all have courage to let silence be.

ho ho ho merry christmas.  :D  no-one got the 'silence' without coming to peace with 'god'. Many don't call it that though. If you think that I imagine some being like myself just bigger when I use the term, I do not. I don't imagine anything.


Christ mind: Mindfulness
God: Nirvana

One needs to let go of conceptions and views. Using Silence, though not as popular term as God, is no less naming the same reality. If you think that the ultimate reality is quiet, you may as well put a white beard on it while you are there!

While you may be not at peace with this term 'god', and I'm guessing here, it will help a lot if you are. That way there is not a person on the planet you cannot look in the eye and relate too and say "yes. I know god, do you?" you then can describe your meditative and mindful practice and relate to where they are at..

god is a dog, silence is a license. Words fail quickly....

have a good day at work, I'm just finishing mine  ;D

A

 

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Morning Dew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 08:30:56 AM »
I asked a question and you Stefan reacted to it. Why dont you now observe that reaction and learn from it  ;D

Am I not allowed to ask questions?  :D :D :D

Quote
Did you?

No ;)





Andrew

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011, 09:07:35 AM »
Do you think I reacted in my emotions? Not at all. Nice try though!  :P Just wanted to share something I've learnt with my friend!
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Stefan

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Re: Is mercy karma's loophole?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 09:16:31 AM »

I asked a question and you Stefan reacted to it. Why dont you now observe that reaction and learn from it  ;D

Am I not allowed to ask questions?  :D :D :D


again: please search your true intentions! Your question was your reaction you should observe and learn from, maybe? and you are allowed to ask questions, and I am allowed to point out when I think they are just picky in an offensive sort of way.

(Please be assured, I watch every movement of the emotion snake with great care ... since we are on thin ice - again - and don't want another little drama to happen!  :) Metta Metta Metta!)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 09:20:13 AM by The Marvellous Omannobazong!!! »
anicca