Author Topic: Between indulgence and self-denial  (Read 15699 times)

Green Tara

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2008, 06:41:05 PM »
@ Tara: Only monks can get enlightened! Nuns and laypeople have to serve! that's a so very typical thing for men to think up, and also a typical thing for "monks" all around the world in every century in every tradition!


Gather around guys I will tell you a story

Once upon a time, aeons ago in a far, far away land a spiritual and compassionate princess was born. She regularly gave offerings and prayers to the ordained monks. She thus developed great merit, and the monks told her that, because of her spiritual attainments, they would pray that she be reborn as a man and spread Buddhist teachings. She responded that there was no male and no female, that nothing existed in reality, and that she wished to remain in female form to serve other beings until everyone reached enlightenment, hence implying the shortfall in the monk's knowledge in presuming only male preachers for the Buddhist religion. That princess was called Tara. known after her attaining enligtenment as the Goddess Tara
I have inherited the name and the attitude.  ;)

Metta to all beings

 
PS.: Tara, if you are Alice, then who's that grinning cat, appearing and disappearing?   ;D (... Matthew, are you grinning right now ?!?!?)
I suppose I'm the singing teapot.

I think Matthew more likely to be the white rabbit, hmmmm I wonder who is The Queen?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 06:44:31 PM by Green Tara »
"Samsaric beings! Cling not to worldly pleasures.  Enter the great city of liberation”

pamojjam

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2008, 10:08:05 PM »

Dear Stefan,

Quote
> I meant that I felt the "Kränkung" deep within you, ...
> It's a "public" forum ...! Good that they all can read this, I think (I hope it's allright for you, too ...)

You choice. On an other side there is so much more than just one dimensional emotions in a felt-sense. And if one stays patiently with such a unclear murky enfolded meaning, it would find out of its own the means to become healthy again. That's why I said, a public forum is not the proper place for such a fragile thing. Making it to something so solid and assuming it by others to be experienced in a similiar constructed way is belitteling it, where it indeed will forever be felt 'gekränkt'.

Wouldn't it be too strange if 'Kränkung' would remain the same for years if attended in a friendly way?!
This it only does belittled and not acknowledged.

So a 'Kränkung' is something solidified in this way for you?

Stefan, so please speak first of all abour your feelings at this moment. If you start to tell me what I would feel without asking if your assumption would be right now, as you also did in your pm, I am off and am no more with your constricting conceptual constructs which don't reflect in any meaningful way the fabric of a breathing organism. It never is so black or white.

If you want to discuss on points of controversies, do it on that level. But never by invalidating your oponents point because you 'feel' him of a lesser moral dedication and prefer him to remain silent on some of the points.

If you really want to do that, you would have again take your reasoning and point it out precisely which parts of my website are obviously colored by a 'Kränkung' of mine, and then also reasonably explaing why it shouldn't be voiced in such a case.
(I work with assylum-seekers, so for example because some of them have been badly tortured and suffer from PSD, you think that is enough effidence by which they loose their right to be heard?)

And please don't simply asume you would be reading my mind.

kind regards..

Matthew

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2008, 08:58:39 AM »
Anyone can get enlightened in the next five minutes if they work out how. It's absolute bullcrap that only monks/nuns can get enlightened - actually its worse than bullcrap, it's politics. As with all religions it is politics that has lead to the vastly differing interpretations of Buddhadhamma or "truth and truthful living" - as I like to call it sometimes - and the philosophical "wars" between schools. There are not many true paths as some Buddhist like to say as a platitude to try and calm the diversity of "Buddhism". Most "Buddhism" is mistaken interpretations of later unenlightened "teachers" who were not even aware of their own machinations. Yuck.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew


"JOHANSSON, RUNE EDVIN  The Psychology of Nirvana; a Comparative Study of the Natural Goal of Buddhism and the Aims of Modern Western Psychology.

It's available from USD 18.95 plus postage here at abebooks

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

PS And I thoroughly recommend it for anyone on the path who wants to gain a deeper insight into the confused nature of modern Buddhism and the real nature of the Buddhas' path.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 09:11:12 AM by The Irreverent Buddhist »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Stefan

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2008, 01:57:31 PM »
Hei Matthew! YES to your opinion, thanx for your link! and who are you? rabbit, cat, both or the mirror? I think you're the mirror.

Hei Tara ... at last! I was waiting for your story and I really like it! (Mine is not so spectacular ... my parents named me stefan and that's it ...) And it really fits to the topic! (Why "green"?)

Hei Pamojjam! hmmmm ... first of all I understand only half of what you write ... really sorry for that! you use a pretty good and difficile english that I sometimes cannot follow. if my translation is correct I would say I touched a raw spot. if my translation is wrong then I don't know how to answer properly.
but heart-on-tongue! I'm not reading your mind, this siddhi I do not possess, and I wouldn't use it without your permission if I had. I can discuss things only on the level I am at right now. I learned to trust my "feelings", I told you the "feeling" that invaded me (and the occasion when it invaded me), I had to tell you because we all need a hint sometimes and I "felt" I had to do it. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I use the wrong word and feeling means something different to you? Sometimes it's possible to sense things, energies or whatsoever without knowing, thinking, meaning, interpreting. That's something I practised for quite a long time now (and which brought me to Vipassana, by the way). Did you make an honest attempt to find out wether I might be right somehow? (Maybe I am wrong!)
I really do not wish to quarrel! You may tell me you think it's nonsense that I can sense something relevant for you, and I won't start again. After all, love is the key, not arguing around.  :)

Metta again & again, Stefan

« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 02:03:23 PM by stefan »
anicca

Stefan

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2008, 07:50:05 PM »
Dear Pamojjam,

yes it's me again ... some hours and at the same time some lightyears later. I had a meditative workout-release-session with my spiritual teacher (she doesn't like to be called that way ...), and besides so many other things that I let go I worked on this "feeling" towards your forum. So here I stand and say:

I WAS WRONG!

I am very sorry for that. It was my mistake.

To be more precise: What I sensed was colored by some other "things", some of them going back to my childhood (I had some strange memories, I can tell ... don't want to bother you with that since these sankharas are dissolved now). And a good deal of it was also simply misunderstanding! In my last post I told you I have difficulties with the translation of your english. And probably also with your way of expressing yourself. After having (again) studied your last post very carefully  I also come to the conclusion that you also missed my intention completely - it seems we both have to be very careful with interpreting each other (I don't even want to know what you meant with this phrase about tortured asylum seekers and why they should loose their right to be heard ... that's sooo far away from what I am!) .
Well, whatever my intention was, I now know it better and admit willingly that there is no "Kränkung" behind what you wrote in your forum. I was not careful enough with examining what I received.
Just to ad an explanation to this sensing technique of mine: Normally I'm quite successful with this sensing (having practiced it for quite a while really), and my abilities seem to have increased a lot since I started Vipassana. But that is the problem, sometimes I feel like someone who left his old car (2CV) behind and now drives with a ferrari ... I'm not really used to the increase of "power" -that's why I hit the next tree, as I did with you. The technique itself is great ... last year there was this sensing I should enter some sort of two-week-eremitage. Sensing on I came to the cognition that I should do a Vipassanacourse! All I knew about Vipassana was that a good friend of mine freaked out completely after her 10day course ... it took her years not to see demons in every corner any more (shudder). I was somehow shocked I should do Vipassana, but on a deeper level I wasn't ... I just knew beyond mind that it's the right thing to do now. And I can tell you: I was absolutely right with what I sensed then! (This is an example why I was so confident towards my "feelings"-sensed intuition, as this is how it normally works). Well, to come to an end: this time it didn't work ... I troubled you for nothing. Hope I learned my lesson, that's what mistakes are for. And still I am glad that this can be read in a public forum ... maybe the next fool who stumbles upon this topic will also learn a thing from this.

I beg humbly for your apology and send you Metta, Stefan
anicca

pamojjam

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2008, 12:41:16 AM »
Dear Stefan,

I really appreciate your readiness to reconsider a second time what I wrote in my last post, since my English might have made this difficult to understand.  Though that you hit my raw spot I could make apparent, at least ;-). The more I'm glad you yourself could take it so much deeper with the help of your angel - where I merely played a further away part I really was. You weren't wrong, but right on in the important point - allowing something to evolve beyond recognition within yourself. And that is really a gift being allowed to see. :-) Thanks.

So from my side no worry of having your intention wrongly interpreted anymore, since so many things played into them neither me nor you could have foreseen. I feel glad for you!

The only part I unmistakably asked you to stop (which I maybe should already have done after your pm), was being told how I would feel.
This request you instantly respected. Therefore nothing there to forgive you today.

... - that out of my particular psychological setup I in reality lived most of my live in denial. ... Denial not so much of pleasures, but inward pretense really.

I really had told myself what to feel.. no anger, only loving.. And what I had helped myself never to see - now erupting - was a Pandora box too difficult to describe. ..sheer madness.

I witnessed abysses of hatred, passion and delusion which wouldn't let it go so easily. And in my case, by the sheerness of this all, at one point I couldn't even relate it to my childhood anymore. Tell me the most unconceivable wretchedness, I recognized it within myself!

Having overall denied myself really living my own life, now I could no other but persist with Vipassana, and these processes did unfold in unforeseeable ways.


Returned to the west, now some years later, I try to assist others through listening and a certain kind of speech allowing such processes to unfold away from cushions too.

In such settings it of course happens that your organism is responding to a person in a way, you might recognize as not your own issue right now - but apearently not the other person's either.
If that person is already exploring inner processes coming out of their own - they always take absolute precedence - and you would never step in with your own.
However, if there is some sense of unhealthy pattern repeating. Than you could say in such a case, for example:
"I don't know what it is, but always while listening to you I start to feel something like a tight knot in my stomach. Feels like something really sore of that size. [just whatever it really feels like for you at that time] How does it feel for you while you hear me saying this?"
If that other persons yawns: 'Nothing'. You stay right there with that person again.

Such processes only start to flower if there is non-conceptual awareness, expecting nothing and acceptance. Trying to teach something takes the opposite. One only stays with this attitude oneself. And then an other person could meet his embodied wisdom. Making it really worthwhile to shut up oneself.

If one contrarily would say right away: "I sense a 'Kränking' deep down in you", it's very likely it's more bearable not so close to oneself; or maybe one is a Psychotherapist in need of clients (?) Either way, the recepient of this sentence feels weaker - and not enabled to look at it out of one's own strenght.


Again, so many thanks for clearing everything between us. Do trust your feelings and let them instruct you (and not the other way around). Authority and orderly evolving experience, all in one. Very, very well done.

metta..
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 01:00:12 AM by pamojjam »

Green Tara

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2008, 09:12:34 AM »
Stefan, I love you ......in a buddhist kind of way......... your humble attitude is a lesson. :)


Hei Tara ... at last! I was waiting for your story and I really like it! (Mine is not so spectacular ... my parents named me stefan and that's it ...) And it really fits to the topic! (Why "green"?)

This is the story of the name Tara. In part two I will tell you the story of the Green Tara.
 :)
"Samsaric beings! Cling not to worldly pleasures.  Enter the great city of liberation”

pamojjam

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2008, 09:25:09 AM »

errata:
If that other persons yawns: 'Nothing'. You stay right there with that person again.
should read:
.. You stay right there with that person's experience again.

.. if my translation is wrong then I don't know how to answer properly. ...

... from what follows you understood me pretty well.

Did you make an honest attempt to find out wether I might be right somehow? (Maybe I am wrong!)

Experienced reality is just changing. Why one would want to be right in assessing that there might have been at one point something resembling for most a 'Kränkung' within someone's other inner evolving experiences? It's much more interesting how the other person experiences what represents a 'Kränkung' for him/herself under whatever context right now. Wanting to be right and assuming takes both away from their own experience, asking and listening places both right there, where change is really happening.

... don't want to bother you with that since these sankharas are dissolved now).

.. don't let such an assertion take you away from your ever changing experience. Rather, I would want to suggest only your solitifying way to look at these thing has stopped for a moment. But is so easily establishes itself again by assuming something 'solid' would have been desolved. Which never had been there in the first place. If rabbits, cats, queens and mirrors are seen for what they are, dynamic processes each of us is going through from time to time, then no rabbits, cats, queens and mirrors - anything there to desolve really. Not even bhava-tanha sankharas.. Just to see how all these things really are.

kind regards..

pamojjam

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2008, 09:36:56 AM »

This is the story of the name Tara. In part two I will tell you the story of the Green Tara.
 :)

Sorry Tara, I interrupted you. I also want to hear the story of Green Tara!

love to all..

Stefan

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2008, 02:42:20 PM »
@ Tara & Pamojjam: At the present moment your words just make me blush ...  :D

Metta, Stefan

PS.: For now maybe just a little correction ...
... don't want to bother you with that since these sankharas are dissolved now).
actually I meant  "... don't want to bother me with that since these sankharas are dissolved"
What's the use of letting go if it's taken up again some hours later? This idea is part of our let-go-technique.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 02:43:30 PM by stefan »
anicca

Green Tara

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2008, 04:23:14 PM »
Sorry Tara, I interrupted you. I also want to hear the story of Green Tara!

Dear Pamojjam, don't apologise, you can interrupt me as often as you like.
That is the beauty of inserting quotes, you can always go back and pick up a point.
for the Green Tara story, I have to wait for the right conditions, for it to have maximum effect. so one of you need to start a thread about, empathy, stepping in or kick-ass Goddess.

@ Tara & Pamojjam: At the present moment your words just make me blush ...  :D

It always amazes me how good I feel when love triumph even, when it has nothing to do with me.  :)

Love to all

Green Tara
"Samsaric beings! Cling not to worldly pleasures.  Enter the great city of liberation”

pamojjam

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2008, 08:32:07 PM »

actually I meant  "... don't want to bother me with that since these sankharas are dissolved"

Stefan, .. that's a good point and I understand very well.

..need to start a thread about, empathy, stepping in or kick-ass Goddess.

Tara, never heard of a kick-ass Goddess. Could you describe that a bid?

kind regards..
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 09:01:43 PM by pamojjam »

Stefan

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2008, 08:08:43 PM »
never heard of a kick-ass Goddess. Could you describe that a bid?

ever seen a picture of Kali?   ;)

It always amazes me how good I feel when love triumph even, when it has nothing to do with me.  :)

it has a lot to do with you  :)

Metta, Stefan
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 08:14:47 PM by stefan »
anicca

pamojjam

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2008, 08:24:49 PM »

I read:

Kali the destroyer of ignorance
Kali the liberator of clinging and illusions
Kali the renovator, the destroyer of the old, so there can be new beginnings
- and behind all this eternal love


hmm.. sounds like anicca, doesn't it?


Stefan

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Re: Between indulgence and self-denial
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2008, 08:49:38 PM »
... precisely! She's the stream of time roaring through this universe to remind us of impermanence.

Metta, Stefan

(As a picture I prefer the look of Durga even though Shiva looks quite relaxed ... Master of Yogis with perfect equanimity ...)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 09:06:09 PM by stefan »
anicca