Author Topic: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]  (Read 87428 times)

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2011, 10:46:15 AM »
Do try, you will be surprised just how important words can be if you use them wisely. Thought, Word, Deed. That's about all we have got most days.


No wisdom without concentration, no concentration without wisdom.

love

andy
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 11:02:00 AM by andy »
getting it done

Morning Dew

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Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2011, 11:45:30 AM »
Thanks Andy :)

Update;
After contemplating my current situation im pretty much sure im in the "Disgust" and "Desire for Deliverance" stages of the Dark Night.
The amount of thoughts and emotions bombarding my attention is Huge. Seems impossible to notice them one by one so to be aware of them. Like a shower falling on me and the breathing seems to slip away very so often. It is a crap stage to be in and i want out of it!

Calm abiding alone seems not to be doing much or maybe im not able to see anything clearly now.

Friendly

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2011, 10:00:47 PM »
Stop wanting out of it. Be where you are.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2011, 06:56:59 AM »
Thanks Matthew for reminding me :)

After reading in Beyond Mindfulness that Metta is of great importance for developing concentration and therefor calming down the hindrances i began to practice it soon to realise how hard it is to so since im so self centered. Being mindful all day long of all people i encounter to give them Metta seeks for total awakeness. One can not get lost into selfish daydreaming about ones own practice, ones own atainments, etc ... including others into the whole picture is in itself awakening i feel.

Who would guess that concentration can be achieved this way. It does make sense though. If the heart is stiff concentration is impossible. To soften it give it to the world moment to moment and the hindrances will give space to concentration.

Be happy and free from suffering,

Dusko

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2011, 02:49:32 PM »
All day at work im practicing Metta but it aint easy. I feel fake. Deep in me im not concerned with others suffering but only my own. Im selfish. It is hard to whish all those people happiness and no suffering. There are so many people out there. How does one do this all day long. I feel like my head is spinning crazy. Is there any compassion left in me i wonder or am i cold like a stone?  :-[

Isnt metta Practice a fabrication?

Be happy and free from suffering,

Dusko

rideforever

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Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2011, 03:30:57 PM »
All day at work im practicing Metta but it aint easy. I feel fake. Deep in me im not concerned with others suffering but only my own. Im selfish. It is hard to whish all those people happiness and no suffering. There are so many people out there. How does one do this all day long. I feel like my head is spinning crazy. Is there any compassion left in me i wonder or am i cold like a stone?  :-[

Isnt metta Practice a fabrication?

Be happy and free from suffering,

Dusko

You want to help because you are a spiritual being, but until you yourself are healed you will not be able to, so start with healing yourself.

Here is something your post reminds me of, a meditation by Osho, where he says start with yourself before taking on the suffering of the world :

http://www.livingwaves.com/osho/atishaheart.htm


Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2011, 07:08:39 PM »
Im at the summer house it is chilly outside. The Nordic sun doesnt warm up that fast :)
Birds songs filling the ears with such joy. Slight wind. Sunset...
While eating fresh dates and drinking tea i Re-read this part a few times;

Quote
The first thing to do is close your doors and stop any kind of occupation - looking at the TV, listening to the radio, reading a book. Stop all occupation, because that too is a subtle drug. Just be silent, utterly alone. Don't even pray, because that again is a drug, you are becoming occupied, you start talking to God, you start praying, you escape from yourself.....


Are you suggesting Sacha to me to stop practicing Metta and simply remain aware of my self?

I do remain aware of myself even when practicing Metta since i clearly observe how myself is reacting to sending Metta to others. Myself does not enjoy spending time on others but rather the self (me me me).
Im not aproaching Metta from the "healing others" point of view but to uncover the egotic self even more, to face it, to get to know its selfishness and most of all ignorance. Myself fins it easy to forgett noticing others and easily slips back to minding oneself. It is too much hussle for myself to remember to wish metta to all people i encounter during my day, actual people. Thanks to this practice i came to realise how self centered i am.

Thank you for replying Sacha :)

Be happy and free from suffering,

Dusko


« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 07:11:01 PM by Dusko »

Quardamon

  • Member
    • Teachers were: P.K.K. Mettavihari, Frits Koster, Nel Kliphuis. (In the line of Mahasi Sayadaw)
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2011, 08:00:03 PM »
I agree with Sacha, I suppose.

In my own words:
It is better to give a little bit of kindness that you can honestly give, than to send loads of love that drag behind them a feeling that you are cold like stone.
If I understand well, this sending of metta should soften the heart of the sender. (Opening the heart could be confronting, but one would not feel fake for opening the heart.) If  you are overdoing it and making it into hard work, than the gentleness and kindness of metta have gone.
There are indeed so many people out there. If you send them all good energy, than you will be depleted soon, or you must be faking it. Or, maybe, you must be processing so much (kundalini) energy that you are in risk of overloading your system.
I believe there is an enormous power in a gentle and kind touch. And I believe that the one who touches keeps his centre of gravity within himself, and on his own feet. The one who touches does not tumble over by putting his centre of gravity in the other or in the surroundings. (In my opinion, than it would not be metta any more - it would be surrender. That is something else, and surrender is appropriate in other situations.)


Be gentle with who and what you are now. Take care of this man called Dusko. He has gone through a lot already.

With love,

Quardamon

P.S.: I wrote this before I saw your reaction to Sacha.


Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2011, 08:34:58 PM »
Quote
P.S.: I wrote this before I saw your reaction to Sacha.

Would your reply be any different if you have seen my reply to Sacha and if how would it sound?

 Thank you.

With Metta,

Dusko

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2011, 01:27:33 AM »
Hi Dusko,

All practice starts with theory. I think you are on the right path with this whole Metta thing, but the theory is what will help at this stage.

For me, Love is an inexhaustible thing. It is the very connective principle of reality, if the scientists build a big enough Collider and smash reality small enough they will discover Love. At that point they will all sit around and cry tears of joy and sadness at what they could have spent their lives doing instead of doubting the messages of all the great teachers; Love god, love others.

I was thinking about this ego thing last night, all the thoughts and all the connections we have to them. I think if I were to spend 1000 years sorting through them, I would not have processed more than a minutes worth of living. This is what I was talking about when I said I wasn't down with this 'hunting the ego' method.


Im not aproaching Metta from the "healing others" point of view but to uncover the egotic self even more, to face it, to get to know its selfishness and most of all ignorance.


It would seem you hold the belief that you can be free all on your own. A shining light in a universe of darkness perhaps, with you soul thoroughly polished of every little perceived fault. This isn't possible because there is no 'you' Dusko, there is only Us.

If you manage to uncover all the ego self, you will find us all in there, even people you hate, and eventually the whole world. This whole 'I can fix myself' stuff doesn't work. You are not alone here, which is the whole point of Love (Metta), you aren't sending it, but merely tracing the lines that are already there. Realizing Love. Once we can see that these lines don't originate with us alone, but are and eternal and infinite loop, we just get on board!

You cannot generate Love/Metta. You can only realize it, and even then will will not realize it all, ever. By definition. 

That is the theory at least! ;)

love
to
all

andy
getting it done

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2011, 02:56:41 AM »
To be more practical, start by realizing all the love that has been given to you in your life, however imperfectly. Realize that you too have given love, however imperfectly. This giving and receiving came from our desire to be connected, however imperfectly.

It will hurt and be exhausting, and feel fake. It feels fake because you think you are doing it and that you have free will. If you look back over the last week, you will see that you came to this place as a matter of course. Trust 'that which helps' is continue to do so if asked. "When the student is ready the teacher appears"


love

andy

For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

The Other Dude.
getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2011, 06:04:02 AM »
Andy my man, you Rock ;D


Be well,
Dusko

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2011, 06:48:30 AM »
HaHaHa :D

Rocks in my head perhaps!

Nothing like a white Jesus to make us feel loved.

love

andy
getting it done

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2011, 07:54:06 AM »
Andy,

...All practice starts with theory. I think you are on the right path with this whole Metta thing, but the theory is what will help at this stage.

Yup, it's called "right view".

....
If you manage to uncover all the ego self, you will find us all in there, even people you hate, and eventually the whole world. This whole 'I can fix myself' stuff doesn't work. ....

That view is somewhat at odds with the Buddha shakyamuni's last words: "Strive diligently for your own salvation". It also contradicts a regular part of the description of the end of the path: he "has done what has to be done".

The whole "we are all one" thing is something that IMHO can be quite dangerous on the path. Unless you have realised this experientially in some transcendental state the chances are you may well apply the view in a way which is not conducive to progress on the path.

You cannot generate Love/Metta. You can only realize it, and even then will will not realize it all, ever. By definition.  ....

This one is definitely not quite right. Metta-Bhavana means "development of kindness" Bhavana meaning "to develop" or "to culture". Metta practice rewires the negative circles and neuron pathways and replaces them with more positive neural pathways just by "practicing feelings of kindness". This is in alignment with recent discoveries about the high plasticity of the human brain.

That is the theory at least! ;)

That's a theory. I think it's important where the theory you have expounded is coloured by some new age truisms to see those for what they are. Not to say they are necessarily completely false but the defining question is "is this beneficial to the path".

The View of Bhavana meditation is that one is practicing and developing these feelings, and training the mind to be used to them. We now know through modern science that new neuron connections are made, rewiring the brain with this kind of activity, and giving scientific support to the benefit of Bhavana practices.

Matthew
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 07:57:31 AM by Matthew »
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2011, 09:11:25 AM »
G'day Mate!

Duskos tone and frame of mind seems to be very 'I will do it all myself' which is only so useful in my experience. (sorry Dusko, speaking about you not to you!)

Would I still be on this site if not for your own patience? so I needed your friendship, your love, when I was blind. If I look at that from a theoretical point of view, I see that what I needed to be reminded of was seemingly external to me, but at the same time deeply connected with my own path. What would it have taken for me to realize this on my own? probably the moment before death, which would be a tad too late! So in that way, the oneness was expressed.

Yes, not much good would have come of it had I not opened my heart, and actually sat down and contemplated it, and yes what I saw there was not the 'all is one' transcendence that 'my 8 seconds' seem to indicate all those years ago, but a deep emptiness and loneliness which I knew somehow preceded total responsibility. But I don't think one truth excludes the other truth. They are really masculine and feminine paths to the same thing; Once you get down to it there is only one.

Alone I would be nothing, you were not the first to help me out, and dare say not the last. This goes for every human being who turn up to make an effort today, from the Dustman to the Pollie, in much smaller ways. I will never know all the names of those who by 'doing the right thing' allowed me to even exist and even less chance of knowing all those who continue to do so..or all the plants which provided my air, and food, all the people who harvest it.

So because it has been picked up by the New Age does that mean it is less credible? As you said, they are partial truths, I would say they can't be any more than that anyway! If it is written down in words, it can't be more than a pale reflection of the truth.

 My 'all in one' theories are from Spinoza, written 400 years ago. And that was a turning point for me in my own understanding of what I can do 'on my own'. In fact it is my failure to do it on my own that made me realize I need help. It also made me realize my obligation to extend help.

I find the reverse of this to be more abstract in the view of my own common sense. Though I don't fail to forget this on an hourly basis! :D

But, your point is taken from the sutta you mention, it certainly is all about cultivating it when read in it's entirety. So Dusko must cultivate it on his own, but we remind him to do so, based on the words of a long dead writer. Sounds like the interactions of something interdependent to me. Some-thing. (now that is a new ageism!)


love

andy


 
getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2011, 10:18:24 AM »
Matthew thanks for posting. You cleared some stuff for me.
Quote
Duskos tone and frame of mind seems to be very 'I will do it all myself' which is only so useful in my experience. (sorry Dusko, speaking about you not to you!)

Andy you used the word It Seems and here you fail to see your projection onto me. I can tell you and Sacha and Quadramon that you misinterpreted my sharing. That is ok since we stand not on the same spot. We can only get to know the self not the others.

Another thing for you to consider is to try and reply to posts after a day or two so you get time to contemplate it my dear friend.

The knowledge you are giving me is a dead knowledge, Spinosa-who's truth is our very lie. :)

Be well and free from suffering my friend :)

Dusko

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2011, 11:52:07 AM »
 

Andy you used the word It Seems and here you fail to see your projection onto me. I can tell you and Sacha and Quadramon that you misinterpreted my sharing.


Well, I'm glad for that. I thought you were turning into a morbid recluse with this abandoning of the city. Not that I don't sympathize, city life is a continual drag for me as well. I'm glad then at least my misguided post served as a counter point to what you needed to hear then. I'll play the clown anytime for you mate.

I have a picture of you being hard on yourself, but as you say I only have my own self to judge what they would mean if I said those things about myself.

So many selves, so little time... :'(  :D

love

andy

getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2011, 12:41:12 PM »
Quote
I only have my own self to judge what they would mean if I said those things about myself.

This is true. This is what we actualy do; we always reflect our own selves in others actions etc

Be well

D

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2011, 08:51:28 PM »
Andy,

Love is selfless hard work in service of others. We all need human contact and we all need to feel part of a group at times: "Sangha" is one of the three Jewels of Buddhism.

I love this Sangha. It has a quality of respectful interaction beyond the norm. The people here are real to me, not faceless profiles. The posting recently has been inspirational and people are getting to know each other, community grows from the chaos of a bunch of (mainly) guys.

You bring a questioning mind that is challenged by love and it is always good to read your posts. I wasn't suggesting that a mantra of "alone, alone" is healthy. At the end of the day the path is something where one does the hard work alone however.

With much love,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2011, 03:11:55 AM »
Thanks for the heartfelt reply Matthew,
Yet again it would seem my efforts to help only end up helping me! It is very challenging to 'see' what Dusko is going through, if not disturbing, though that is, as we have established, something going on in my reality.

There is something very fundamental about this thread, the ego thread and jesus/buddha thread which are flaring up a few reactions in me. I think I need to get copies of the Pali cannon and see for myself how it is written down. My default mysticism and solipsism hasn't served me the way i imagined it would, in alot of ways I have stopped asking the 'Big Why'  and put it all in the Mystery basket.

Thanks for your patience Matthew and Dusko. I think I understand what Quardamon meant when he said reading my aunties book would help me be a better friend; the 'well meaning missionary' needs to hang up the 'dog collar'.

love

andy
getting it done

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2011, 04:18:07 AM »
I think I need to get copies of the Pali cannon and see for myself how it is written down.

I may have to get a kick arse book shelf first , geez :D
getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2011, 06:17:26 AM »
Quote
Yet again it would seem my efforts to help only end up helping me

We see in others only what we see in ourselves. This alone should help you STOP and be very aware of that very "self" wanting to help. Why is this Andy wanting to help, what will happen if andy fails to help? Is is not good enough? Or else?
Whatever it is, Do Not intelectualise your experience but stay with it in Shamatha, reject it not, desire it not.
It is of great importance to get to know this compulsive "Andy helper" and slow "him" totaly down by simply observing " him" and calming "him" into the body. You will not be able to move on, on the path without this. 1000 books in Pali and 1000 Buddhas will not help you here but you yourself, sitting on your ars observing that very compulsive emotion you call self without judging it.

I would advice you to reduce indulging in reading and pondering about religion to maybe 1 hour a week. Read something else, like me for example about gardening and wind mills ;)
Keep practicing instead.
I even meditate on the train to work now. That gives me an extra 55 mins session :) dont you think my wisdoms eye get some excercise this way or by intelectualising with our brother Jeepers (no harm here Jeepers :) )

Quote

I may have to get a kick arse book shelf first , geez

I would suggest a personal Journal on this forum instead and burn all those books inside your head and keet at sensing yourself moment to moment. You are inside your mind most of the time pondering failing to see the senses behind the scene :)
Keep at that instead. Meditation is a fine instrument in need for some very fine tuning like a guitar. You dont need noise in form of books when tuneing this instrument :)

Your friend on the path Dusko

Be hapoy be free from suffering

rideforever

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2011, 07:03:04 AM »
Hi Dusko, can you say more about how I misinterpreted your sharing a few posts back.
thanks

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2011, 08:53:43 AM »
Sacha,

I am not clinging to an idea of taking the suffering of others nor to heal others. I use metta to observe how my conditioned self reacts to it. It reacts a lot so i observe this and calm it into the body making sure to be grounded in the now of each in and outbreath.

You did nothing wrong my friend :)
Lets carry on on keeping an awake eye on the very self rather than others.

Be well be free from suffering

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: Abiding in calm and mindful self-sufficiency [Journal]
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2011, 06:22:07 AM »
Tiny update:

I mentioned a week ago or so thag i will stop sitting for a while and just do some contemplation for a while. Well, the very next day i resumed sitting because i felt restless all day long at work. Sitting itself even if with lots of ups and downs brings peace in ones life. I see now it is the mind that has ups and downs and not the body. While sitting the body is releasing happy hormones even though the mind can be up and down alot.

Daily sitting is indeed of great importance i see now even more so.
I practice Metta all day long and it makes a difference. I am suddely giving space to others in my head which was usually reserved only for me me me.

The waves are calming down now. I feel another stage of the Dark Night migh be over. I seem to see better the always wanting self. I feel it in the body. I calm it in the body.
I can not take my thought seriously anymore.

I will sitt a one day solo retreat next thursday. Since only one day will try and sit up to 10 hours.

May you all be happy and free from suffering.

Dusko

 

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