Prana / Yoga / Containing Energy

[rideforever]

Hello.  I was just listening to Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev on youtube earlier and he said that his yoga works like this : it aims to raise your energies to a certain point, and after that the effort is to 'contain' the energies.

Does anybody have any information as to how that relates to Vipassana ?

[Matthew]

Vipassana means seeing things as they really are. What you have described is an immense fabrication.

[rideforever]

Is yoga an immense fabrication ?

If I can't see, and hope to see, everything is an immense fabrication.

[Matthew]

rideforever,

Is yoga an immense fabrication ?

Yoga means union. Within Hinduism and associated sects it means union with everything, becoming one with the "Creator God".

Have you experienced this oneness? The Buddha's teachings were a direct contradiction to these schools of thought. You are mixing many.

If I can't see, and hope to see, everything is an immense fabrication.

You are seeing everything through perceptual filters created from your experiences in life. So yes, everything is an immense fabrication. Hoping to see must be followed by learning to see or you will always be stuck in this place. Vipassana (seeing things as they are) is the antidote to fabrication and conditioning.

The first union you must achieve is with yourself.

You seem to be really a bit lost in the "Spiritual Supermarket". Jumping from Osho to Sadhguru to using emotional freedom techniques with Vipassana etc, etc.

At some point you need to turn off youtube, stop reading and spend a serious amount of time sitting on your cushion facing yourself and clearing out the clutter so you are not drawn from one thing to another by your untamed mind.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[rideforever]

You disapprove of what I am doing, and you want to give me your judgement.

You want to tell me what the path is - but you don't know, otherwise you would be there already.

Spiritual Supermarket ?  This kind of language is your vocabulary not mine.

'In the Dharma' ... is that where you are ?  Or in your castle ?  Did you make the website so that you can sit on the throne ?


I asked about prana, something that Goenka mentions in his courses.  I think the Buddhists call it subtle wind / subtle energy ?  Right ? 

[siddharthgode]

i dont like the reply,
matthew is 200% correct, it is a spiritual supermarket ,he is not putting any of his views or ideas at all here,
 plz rideforever forget all about creator or universe for time being or u will be riding for ever !!!!! 
r u a hindu? i am , and i used to get same kind of reaction when others used to talk about anything against our ways
OBSERVE , OBSERVE , OBSERVE

and also plz dont mind if this hurt u, i am still learning the art of communicating .

[thomas]

I cant speak in the language that some people on here speak, so maybe wont get my point across very well.

I dont think there is necessarily a contradiction between the aims of yoga and the aims of vipassana.
In fact, to me they seem identical. It is a matter of perspective on the teachings and texts.

In hinduism,  God, eg Vishnu, appears 'to me' to be a symbolic visual embodiment of the nature of reality.

So Oneness with God - is the same as oneness with the nature of reality - which is the same as seeing things as they really are.

To have a view of whether they mean the same thing requires research, conceptualisation and a particular perspective. All of which it seems are to be avoided within vipassana practice.

From my perspective and conceptualisation of the reading I've done - I see the aims as the same.

I dont think there is one route to the same goal. I also dont think that using several routes will take away from the overall objective.

Who's to say that theres not a magical combination which leads to fast track enlightenment. Maybe buddha missed a trick.

[rideforever]

i dont like the reply,
matthew is 200% correct, it is a spiritual supermarket ,he is not putting any of his views or ideas at all here,
 plz rideforever forget all about creator or universe for time being or u will be riding for ever !!!!! 
r u a hindu? i am , and i used to get same kind of reaction when others used to talk about anything against our ways
OBSERVE , OBSERVE , OBSERVE

and also plz dont mind if this hurt u, i am still learning the art of communicating .

"Creator of the universe", "Spiritual Supermarket".  Who said these words ? 

You and Matthew said these words.

These are your ideas from inside your mind.  Read the post again.

You see what you want to see.

[siddharthgode]

"Creator of the universe", "Spiritual Supermarket".  Who said these words ? 

You and Matthew said these words.

These are your ideas from inside your mind.  Read the post again.

You see what you want to see.

no sir what i mean is stop seeing all together and start believing only experiences that u had, i just feel that u are just jumping around .
 if yoga tells me to do some breathing exercises because it increases bla bla bla helps bla bla bla , the list goes on and on and on, then how can i start the practice ? dogma everywhere

"it aims to raise your energies to a certain point, and after that the effort is to 'contain' the energies."
i just cant see how to start the practice after hearing this. thats all 
i can explain whole of vipassana in a single sentence , even a word i guess. i dont see that here

[siddharthgode]

You want to tell me what the path is - but you don't know, otherwise you would be there already.

oh but the path is crystal clear for everyone , there is nothing tell or show.

'In the Dharma' ... is that where you are ?  Or in your castle ?  Did you make the website so that you can sit on the throne ?

now where did this kind of reaction come from??

I asked about prana, something that Goenka mentions in his courses.  I think the Buddhists call it subtle wind / subtle energy ?  Right ?

why ask about something u have not see or felt?

[Matthew]

rideforever,

"Spiritual Supermarket" is a phrase coined by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to describe what you are doing. Not my words. Read his book "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism" to get an idea - and then look in a mirror.

This house was built for all. I do not sit on any throne except when I am taking a crap. That is why everyone has the same number of stars, there is no ranking or rating system (there is but it is turned off) and everyone has the same designation - except those of us who do the work of keeping this place functioning.

Doing that work does not make us kings. We mainly clean out the toilets as it happens.

Your passive aggressive attitude towards me is beginning to be the opposite of "right speech". Please before you post replies to my posts will you stop just for a moment to read them, and ask yourself if you are taking out some anger on me that is misplaced. Right speech is an important part of generating right mindfulness. Without right mindfulness your posts resemble ranting, not discussion.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[rideforever]

Matthew

I start a thread asking if anyone has experience of Prana and Vipassana

you say  "What you have described is an immense fabrication"

An immense fabrication ?  I am just asking a question about Prana. 

What's your problem. 

You are telling me I see a spiritual supermarket and creator God. 

I never used these words - these are you words, from your mind.

Do you know your mind at all ? 

You start talking about "Creator God" ... your own words ... and you say it has something to do with me !!!!!!!

Know your mind Matthew.  Right Understanding.


And ... it's just as easy to take pride in cleaning the toilets as it is in shaving your head.  Normally an Abbot is promoted to the position of head of a sangha by virtue of his teaching, not by buying a website.  It's something to be watchful over.

[Matthew]

I am telling you that you are in the Spiritual Supermarket, basket in hand, heading for the checkout - yet again. It has become your daily bread it seems, from your posts. If you read the book mentioned above you may start to see what you are doing now, and stop for a while, and try sticking with a practice.

[Matthew]

I cant speak in the language that some people on here speak, so maybe wont get my point across very well.

I dont think there is necessarily a contradiction between the aims of yoga and the aims of vipassana.
In fact, to me they seem identical. It is a matter of perspective on the teachings and texts.

In hinduism,  God, eg Vishnu, appears 'to me' to be a symbolic visual embodiment of the nature of reality.

So Oneness with God - is the same as oneness with the nature of reality - which is the same as seeing things as they really are.

To have a view of whether they mean the same thing requires research, conceptualisation and a particular perspective. All of which it seems are to be avoided within vipassana practice.

From my perspective and conceptualisation of the reading I've done - I see the aims as the same.

I dont think there is one route to the same goal. I also dont think that using several routes will take away from the overall objective.

Who's to say that theres not a magical combination which leads to fast track enlightenment. Maybe buddha missed a trick.

Much of what you say is wise yet in some is mistaken. Taking different routes at the same time is not possible. You will end up taking one route - your own, and to who knows where? Knowing the view, the journey is the start of the journey. The meditative journey as described by the Buddha is contradictory to these other routes.

Conceptualising is fine, realising different.

[dragoneye]

This thread seems to have a good deal of momentum; maybe not in a positive direction. It has the scent of unskillfiful words and frustration.
I am replying to acknowledge thomas' reply.
I share your perspective regarding terminology, i.e., the term God and the terms universal truth, or Union, or Yoga, are interchangeable for me too.
I believe, that, if they were interchangeable for more of us, we would avoid much misunderstanding and suffering.
I will also add, there are many paths to happiness, who's to say that one is not a combination of Vipassana and Yoga?
Blessings, and with loving kindness,
DE
 

[rideforever]

Much of what you say is wise yet in some is mistaken. Taking different routes at the same time is not possible. You will end up taking one route - your own, and to who knows where? Knowing the view, the journey is the start of the journey. The meditative journey as described by the Buddha is contradictory to these other routes.

Conceptualising is fine, realising different.

Hey.  I know it is mistaken, I am routing around here.  But listen if I post videos of Osho or Sadhguru or someone else ... I don't see any different routes.  I just see the source emanating from these different vehicles.  I see the same thing coming from them.

You think that I am confused and mixing things up etc... but that's not what I see.  That is what you see.  I look straight through all these things and see the source (where I see it).  I am not interested in someone's definition of yoga ... because that is not what I see in 'yoga' ... I just see the source.  There is not yoga or buddhism, there is just the source and attempts to speak from it - and I hear it.

Do you see ... you attribute to me this confusion and mixing of things - but that is not my way.  For me there is only one path, and somethings speak to me from it.  There are no 2 things.  That's why I am not interested in theory or definitions ... that's why I put up a video of people dancing.

Although I hear it, my way of communication is messy - but ... you think I don't know ?  I am dealing with the mess inside me all day long, every second I see the mess and I hear the source. 

But making my mess available on this website I seek to unravel it, I am not hiding it. 

--------------

Another way : yes my output is a confusing mess.  I am aware of it, but not hiding it.  In revealing the mess I hope to do something. 

You seem to see things in it (mixing up of techniques for instance) but ... like I said I don't see these things myself, you see them ... you attribute to me things I have not said and do not see.  I want to clarify that point.

[rideforever]

I am telling you that you are in the Spiritual Supermarket, basket in hand, heading for the checkout - yet again. It has become your daily bread it seems, from your posts. If you read the book mentioned above you may start to see what you are doing now, and stop for a while, and try sticking with a practice.

If you look in the Book Recommendations you will see that I put Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism as my No1 and only ever book, the first and most important.  And yes it is sitting not 2 metres away from me right now.

A supermarket only exists if you see divisions and value them - i.e. you desire to see divisions, to make judgements.

[Matthew]

rideforever,

...Do you see ... you attribute to me this confusion and mixing of things - but that is not my way.  ......
I am dealing with the mess inside me all day long, every second I see the mess .....

Another way : yes my output is a confusing mess.  I am aware of it, but not hiding it.  In revealing the mess I hope to do something. 
....

Please accept my apologies if I have mistakenly formed the impression you are mixing up techniques. The above parts of your post really say it all. My first response to you was civil and gave an answer to what the something might be:

.....
At some point you need to turn off youtube, stop reading and spend a serious amount of time sitting on your cushion facing yourself and clearing out the clutter so you are not drawn from one thing to another by your untamed mind.
...

Maybe gardening or Hatha yoga would be better for you - I don't know, yet this is a meditation forum so guess what? That is what most people here might tend towards.

Also in that first post I used Trungpa's terminology from your number one book, yet you berate me all day for it?

Matthew

[rideforever]

There's been some not good things said in this thread.  Ok, I am part of that - and I don't like it. 

... well look if you re-read your first reply ... you are not really entering into the discussion I am creating ... more like closing the door.  Why ?    Re-reading my opening post ... seems ok, nothing antagonistic in it.  But your reply seems like closing the door ... ?

Is there some bad feeling between us that is lurking around from previous times that has come into this thread ?

[ivana]

There's been some not good things said in this thread.  Ok, I am part of that - and I don't like it. 

... well look if you re-read your first reply ... you are not really entering into the discussion I am creating ... more like closing the door.  Why ?    Re-reading my opening post ... seems ok, nothing antagonistic in it.  But your reply seems like closing the door ... ?

Is there some bad feeling between us that is lurking around from previous times that has come into this thread ?

Dear Rideforever
My door is always open
Take care
Ivana

[Matthew]

Dear rideforever,

On my part there is certainly no bad feeling. If you re-read my first post I was closing that door and you rightly ask "why?". It is about the third door you have opened in a week. You clearly spend a lot of time reading on the net about spirituality and watching videos - for all I know you could be a member of several other forums posting there too. It is good to have an interest but one must act with mindfulness. All this time on the internet, all this door discovering, detracts from your meditative state. All this searching for answers is missing the answer. It is right before you. It is you. The meditative state is achieved in many ways but choosing one and sticking to it for a while is recommended. All the time you spend looking at the outside world could be spent looking at yourself in meditative absorption. That is where you will find your answers. Not in a book or on the internet. As it says under my name over there < "It's a D.I.Y thing" - that doesn't mean "make it up as you go along" - but that to follow any path means undertaking the work yourself. And that is not done by surfing the web and trying to connect the dots. As per the name of this forum, in "meditation" it is generally done sitting, standing, walking or laying down and involves some kind of internal directed awareness examining the phenomena you identify with and call "I", "me" and "mine". That is why I recommend you stop looking for doors and walk or sit through the one this forum is about. The truth is not out there. It is in you.

Warmly,

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[rideforever]

Okay, so your response was about the past as you say, about the 3 doors I had opened this week.  I opened a new thread, and you were talking about the past.

If I start a conversation in the present can you tackle it in the present, if at all, and not bring feelings from the past into it.

You make a number of assumptions about me which I want to tackle here :

> thinking that I do not stick to a practice :  At the moment I am doing roughly 1.5hrs x 3 of Goenka Vipassana every day ... there is very little variation with it.

> the time I spend on the internet : Well you know I am doing about 4-5 hrs of meditation as a householder ... it's not bad is it.  Why criticise ?  And yes, I spend time on the internet mostly listening to masters or reading sutras. 

This is my life Matthew so you can understand :

4.5 hrs of Goenka Vipassana a day
Other time listening to masters or reading sutras, occasional movie
Exercise Mon/Wed/Fri

There it is.


Some questions for you :

> why do you criticise how I practice and how I live ?

> why do you choose to judge me ?

> why do you choose to tell me what the path is or isn't ?

> why do you choose to telll me "I make it up as you go along" ?

You said that you have no bad feeling ?  But these things you do ... are bad feelings.  Isn't it ?  Sometimes you are judging.  You make assumptions.  You ignore questions and talk from the past.

[Masauwu]

Rideforever, you don`t have enemies here, the suggestions were meant to assist you in your meditation practice. You feel under attack by critics and bad feelings but these attacks are not real, you give them power and make them stronger. Nobody will tell you what you must or must not do, but on a Vipassana forum you have to expect to get mostly Vipassana advice. 

Let`s say i am trying a method of meditation that slowly removes mental constructs towards the goal of becoming free of them completely. But at the same time i also like to read a lot of Gurdjieff and Tolle. This means i`m putting mental constructs in my mind faster than my meditation can remove them. It`s not to say those other teachings are bad, but mixing several of them is like trying to drive a car using a separate steering wheel for each of its wheels - it`s great exercise but i won`t get anywhere.

Maybe you can try using the first of the three 1.5h sessions with Shamatha for a week as an exercise and see if your practice changes? In any case, i wish you well with your quest no matter what path you choose.

[Matthew]

...
Okay, so your response was about the past as you say, about the 3 doors I had opened this week.  I opened a new thread, and you were talking about the past.

Trying to open three doors in a week shows there is no real stable view to your practice. You are shopping in the supermarket. You have raised new issues three times in this week. That is not about "the past" - it is a sign of your present and ongoing state of mind which - as you have admitted - is a "mess".

If I start a conversation in the present can you tackle it in the present, if at all, and not bring feelings from the past into it.

You can not have a conversation "in the present". By the time anyone reads your response they are reading "the past". By the time you are aware of your thoughts you are dealing with "the past".

There is no bad feeling in me towards you. I have found your aggressive comments and attacking style unpleasant but it is not an unpleasantness that affects the way I deal with you. If I seem hard it is because you don't hear gentle.

You make a number of assumptions about me which I want to tackle here :

> thinking that I do not stick to a practice :  At the moment I am doing roughly 1.5hrs x 3 of Goenka Vipassana every day ... there is very little variation with it.

> the time I spend on the internet : Well you know I am doing about 4-5 hrs of meditation as a householder ... it's not bad is it.  Why criticise ?  And yes, I spend time on the internet mostly listening to masters or reading sutras. 

This is my life Matthew so you can understand :

4.5 hrs of Goenka Vipassana a day
Other time listening to masters or reading sutras, occasional movie
Exercise Mon/Wed/Fri

There it is.

Sorry you are doing so much Goenka Vipassana and getting so few fruits in terms of stability of mind, inability to drop your clinging and craving and a peaceful attitude. Not going to go over old ground, yet I have explained before why Goenka Vipassana is not, in my opinion, a beneficial form of practice. Your experience adds to my body of knowledge regarding Goenka's regime.

Regarding the use of the internet, as we know it has lead you to three new ways of thinking about things this week.  Do you not recognise this as a form a of craving for being? Do you not recognise there is a compulsive element to this? If you do not see these things then your Vipassana practice really needs to be questioned. Vipassana does mean "seeing things as they are".

Some questions for you :

> why do you criticise how I practice and how I live ?

It is not working for you. Your posts here show that clearly. But actually there was not a great deal of criticism in my replies. You read what you want to read into them quite clearly.

> why do you choose to judge me ?

Am I judging you or am I seeing things as they are? -  Is there evidence you are confused and I am trying to offer a helping hand? You are the one who described your situation as "I am dealing with the mess inside me all day long, every second I see the mess ..."

> why do you choose to tell me what the path is or isn't ?

Because you are suffering.

> why do you choose to telll me "I make it up as you go along" ?

That is not what I said. Please don't misquote me. Read it again - as I said you read what you want to read into them.

You said that you have no bad feeling ?  But these things you do ... are bad feelings.  Isn't it ?

You have clearly experienced negative feelings towards me for some time. Your posts have become increasingly aggressive (not just in this thread). I am not experiencing negative feelings towards you. It is unpleasant to be attacked repeatedly yet your suffering is the source of this. I feel compassion for the situation you are in. I have been as confused as you in the past. This is not a judgement, this is based on your description of your mind as "a mess" and your posting behaviour.

Sometimes you are judging.  You make assumptions.  You ignore questions and talk from the past.

Sometimes it is necessary to have an understanding of the situation someone is in. What you perceive as assumptions are based on the evidence of your posts. I have not ignored any of your questions here. I have already covered the issue of what you perceive as "the past" - your behaviour is ongoing and consistent.

Surely you will not like this post. I am sorry for your suffering. It is yours, coming from your mind, your confusion, your "mess", your assumptions.

Seeing things as they are is the antidote.

[Morning Dew]

Rideforever my friend you sure needed this slap on the face to wake you up from your fidgeting transe.     Thank you Matthew for who you are and keep up the good work. You are taking great care of this community.
As you already heard, we are not your enemies but to see that throw all those books in the garbage and be with yourself. The way i see it you are fidgeting and Calm-abiding is all you need to practice, for a year or two. Or three.

Be well.

Friendly Che