Author Topic: Are they lying?...  (Read 10588 times)

nibs

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2011, 01:01:16 PM »
It's good to be critical of those making claims. People script, lie, misread, mis-interpret, overlook, mis-diagnose and play the ego game all the time. So-called "advanced" meditators sometimes really need a good kick in the arse.  I think a good yardstick to measure the so called "advanced" status is to see how ruffled one's feathers get at criticism of one's "path". Consider someone as "advanced" if they embody any insights they have gained in all actions of body, speech or mind. If they don't, then you get the suspect behavior that doesn't match that projected idea of the saint with rays of sunshine emanating from every orifice.

nibs (mid way between beginner and advanced yogi)


Edit: Any Tom Dick or Harry can develop access to jhanas. That doesn't make them saints. Devadatta comes to mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Matthew

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2011, 05:24:24 PM »
.....

Not that I think Jhanananda is likely to read this, but I apologize to him for being harsh and judgmental. I have obviously no idea how far he has come in life and certainly he is extremely knowledgeable and not doing anyone any harm. For what it is worth, it is because I believe him that I get upset.
.....

Andy

Jhananda is very unlikely to read this. He has fallen out with everyone and everything in the Buddhist world. He is stuck in a dead end of meditation which will take him no where.

Do not assume he is doing no harm. He is dragging others into that dead end too. How do I know it is a dead end? Because he has been in the same place for twenty or more years by his own reckoning.

Nibs points out the two key factors:

It's good to be critical of those making claims. ......  I think a good yardstick to measure the so called "advanced" status is to see how ruffled one's feathers get at criticism of one's "path"

.......

Edit: Any Tom Dick or Harry can develop access to jhanas. That doesn't make them saints. Devadatta comes to mind.

Indeed anyone can access the Jhana's and it does not make them saints. Jhananda's response to Nibs "yardstick" measure was to stomp around like a petulant child, refuse to answer a question then ask to have his account deleted. I was more than happy to do this because his ego was getting very stroked by all the attention his claims got on here and he became a bigger risk to other meditators the longer he stayed: by distracting them into his cul-de-sac of "Jhana is everything".

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

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    • Letting Go.
Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 02:00:47 AM »
Thanks Matthew.  Hi nibs! I don't believe we have 'met', good to do so! thanks for your posts!

It remains for me that there is a lot of time needed for me to calm this hindrance. On one hand, my thoughts are clearer and I'm more aware of the direction they move in. On the other, I can see that I need to up sitting time to be significantly to calm the basis of this doubt. I would be lying myself if I said  I can see that  elevated expectations are in the way and that I can easily move beyond them. They are so closely intertwined with the very thing that is mean to be calming them that is is heartbreaking to let them go!

I have the feeling that I'm in a corner, and it is time to turn around and walk through the wall...


love

andy
getting it done

Jeeprs

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2011, 02:33:22 AM »
A perspective from Zen

Quote from: Hui Neng

Learned Audience, what the ignorant merely talk about, wise men put into actual practice with their mind.  There is also a class of foolish people who sit quietly and try to keep their mind blank. 

They refrain from thinking of anything and call themselves 'great'. 

On account of their heretical view we can hardly talk to them. 

From the Platform Sutra. The chapter 'on Prajna' provides more context for why Hui Neng says this.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 02:42:08 AM by Jeeprs »

Andrew

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2011, 02:54:35 AM »
wow, that is a gem  Jeeprs!

love

andy
getting it done

Morning Dew

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2011, 07:23:43 AM »
Jeepers my friend  :) you are full of knowledge I see in each post of yours indeed. I just wonder with so much intellectual input how does your meditation practice look like?
What thoughts and dialogs you get to observe while sitting? Must be all about Buddhism  ;D Buddhism this Buddhism that, sutra this, jhana that, buddha said this, or that  ...  ;)

BTW, I have read in another thread (?) you wrote about how it is still difficult for you to make your self go and sit, and you force your self to do so. After all those years of being a meditator and with soooo MUCH knowledge I wonder why is your SELF still so powerful and not willing to sit with itself in a more content manner, with peace and equanimity? Please answer. Thank you.

Friendly Che

Jeeprs

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2011, 07:41:16 AM »
well, you're right. I do find it much easier to read and write, than to sit. I have a pretty dull job, and a mortgage, probably for a long time to come. So I escape into the realm of ideas. It is like a dialog with all these great thinkers. I can't help myself, really.

I do have a hard time convincing myself to sit. I sleep in in the morning, and then in the afternoon, like now, when it is time to practice, here I am typing again. But I am trying to do less of this, actually I have stopped altogether at one of the other forums.

As for my practice, if that is what it is, when I actually do it, it is very good. But nothing like what most people here seem to report. Nothing ever happens in terms of reaching higher states or anything. My main aim is just to stay put for the appointed time.  Something happens through the practice, though. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is good. There is no dialog, I just try and observe the body and mind as per the instructions. Sometimes I succeed in becoming quiet. Most of what arises from the practice comes up later in the day, or when I am doing something else. But I have always been interested in philosophy, and I have always been a chatterbox.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 07:43:30 AM by Jeeprs »

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2011, 07:48:26 AM »
 :-* Morning Che,

Are you a little grumpy this morning? Have you sat yet and had your dump?

love

andy
getting it done

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2011, 08:11:55 AM »
A perspective from Zen

Quote from: Hui Neng

Learned Audience, what the ignorant merely talk about, wise men put into actual practice with their mind.  There is also a class of foolish people who sit quietly and try to keep their mind blank. 

They refrain from thinking of anything and call themselves 'great'. 

On account of their heretical view we can hardly talk to them. 

From the Platform Sutra. The chapter 'on Prajna' provides more context for why Hui Neng says this.



As I have said repeatedly -any form of meditation that uses force instead of relaxation risks hypnosis into a dull quiet mind. Hui Neng is referring to this state.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2011, 08:27:45 AM »
I have begun to recognize three 'states'
1) very alert, my mind 'snaps' to attention after about 15 mins and I feel compelled to sit up straighter.
2) drowsiness and drifting when I'm too tired and
3) a dream state, which is the hypnosis you talk about. It's not hard to tell the difference as I used to do hypnosis as part of therapy.
oh and 4) I just don't get relaxed at all and fidget!

my issue at the moment is getting the extra time in, I'm still only managing 20-30mins due to time constraints like going to work and going to sleep early! I have the encouragement I need to make the extra sacrifice now.

thanks

&

love

andy
getting it done

ivana

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2011, 06:37:08 PM »
I am convinced about meditation as a helping to people to manage their life and it is not bullshit.
with love
Ivana

Morning Dew

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2011, 07:54:41 PM »
Ivana I LOVE your straightforward statement  :D

Friendly Che

Stefan

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2011, 07:55:25 PM »
well, you're right. I do find it much easier to read and write, than to sit. I have a pretty dull job, and a mortgage, probably for a long time to come. So I escape into the realm of ideas. It is like a dialog with all these great thinkers. I can't help myself, really.

I do have a hard time convincing myself to sit. I sleep in in the morning, and then in the afternoon, like now, when it is time to practice, here I am typing again. But I am trying to do less of this, actually I have stopped altogether at one of the other forums.

As for my practice, if that is what it is, when I actually do it, it is very good. But nothing like what most people here seem to report. Nothing ever happens in terms of reaching higher states or anything. My main aim is just to stay put for the appointed time.  Something happens through the practice, though. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is good. There is no dialog, I just try and observe the body and mind as per the instructions. Sometimes I succeed in becoming quiet. Most of what arises from the practice comes up later in the day, or when I am doing something else. But I have always been interested in philosophy, and I have always been a chatterbox.

hmmmm ... if this is your reaction to the very provocing post of Che, then you reached higher states all right! Because you've seen through Che's rough words and see the truth behind them, and even more, you are willing to humbly admit it. I have much respect for you!

Metta, Stefan
anicca

Morning Dew

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2011, 08:09:05 PM »
@ Jeepers;

Thank you my friend for opening yourself up to us like this. Earlier on I kind of felt like you were not really aware of all this you just said above but I had wrong and am very happy you do seem to know "the self" very good. So, SOME of all the "Buddhism" stuff is just a sweet escape then  :)
Glad I got that one straight  ;D :-* :)

Friendly Che

Jeeprs

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2011, 08:57:46 PM »
thank you, Che.

My main aim is to try and find a way for what I have learned to benefit all sentient beings, as the teaching says, by concentrating on what is useful and assists people with their search. So I will often say 'have you considered it from this angle?', or 'what about this teaching', or 'this particular school says ...'.  But within all of this diversity, I hope there is the 'golden thread' leading out of the maze.

Oh, and also did get up with the alarm this morning and sat, and am determined to maintain the practice, so thanks for the reminder:-)

rideforever

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2011, 09:03:03 PM »
But I have always been interested in philosophy, and I have always been a chatterbox.

Hello.  Have you considered that philosophy and theology may be an obstruction to practice ?


Morning Dew

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2011, 09:08:41 PM »
Oh, and also did get up with the alarm this morning and sat, and am determined to maintain the practice, so thanks for the reminder:-)

Good man  ;D

Jeeprs

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2011, 09:14:18 PM »
But I have always been interested in philosophy, and I have always been a chatterbox.

Hello.  Have you considered that philosophy and theology may be an obstruction to practice ?

Sure. They may be. But so might anti-religion. ;)

Stefan

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Re: Are they lying?...
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2011, 07:20:00 AM »


Sure. They may be. But so might anti-religion. ;)


 :) We really need a "Thumbs Up" button in this forum  ...
anicca