Between sensation, feeling and thought.

[Flipasso]

Hi.
I'm reading the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. I've just finnished the citta(mind) chapter and some doubts ocurred(spl?).
The sutta talks about kaya(body, postures, and breath), vedana(feeling), citta(mind) and dhamma(mind objects). (hope i'm not forgetting anything)
It seems to me (from the notes aswell) that feeling(vedana) and citta(mind) are pretty much the same thing. At least in the language that it is explained I don't see the difference.
When I practice I usually just observe sensation and thought. I give a lot of importance to intention aswell.
In the book the Buddha says to observe whether the feeling is pleasant or unpleasant and if it comes from sense objects or non-sense(lol) objects. Then He says to observe the mind if it is with anger, with lust, with delusion, etc.
If the feeling is pleasant or unpleasant is for me somewhat hard to tell. Except from actual pain, sometimes sensations I call fear or anger are somehow pleasant to me - in the body that is.
The mind if it's fearfull or angry or sad, I usually feel that in the body not in the mind. The only things I see in the mind is the thought and the intention (althought intention usually is felt in the body also).
I didn't make myself very clear, but I'll try better.
The feelings I feel in the body. The mind (as reffered in the book) I feel it in the body. Only dhamma (which I've not read interely) I feel in the mind (head to be precise).
Where did the buddha say the mind was?
Where does sensation lye here?
Hope you understand.


peace@you.all

[mettajoey]

Hi Flip,
Noting the feelings and emotions is key.  Just to notice is enough and not to attach to a craving or aversion.  So it doesn't matter so much if it feels good or bad but that you stay constant and equanimous to whatever comes up.  I think it is impossible to separate mind and body or to actually to find the point at which this is supposed to occur.  Events that you experience imprint themselves in your body.  Some of the more dramatic events have very strong locations within the body.  I lost my mother when I was just 1.5yrs old and then lost a stepmother when I was 9 and also had an abusive father, which has left me with some very strong abandonment issues that I feel quite distinctly in my diaphragm when it's aroused.  It took close to a year of meditation and and my ten-day to finally locate that pain or even be aware of that spot.  I knew the deep pain that came up inside me, and negative emotions it produced, but I was finally able to touch it and by just being aware have begun to lessen its hold on me.

On an aside:
A practice that I often use is just to sense a feeling or emotion and stay with it without any judgment.  If I can let it be on its own, breathe around it, I often can find out from where the feelings or emotions arise; or sense it on a deeper level.  I do not know if this is actually Vipassana but it goes a long way for me to better understand myself and unravel conditioning.  I can journey back in time, so to speak, and discover where roots of a certain emotion come from.  I like many folks recovering from trauma need to go back to an event that happened when I was a child and revisit the experience as an adult and basically comfort that hurt child to be able to move past an event.  For me it's a twofold experience, actually seeing and accepting myself, strengths and weaknesses, and doing some self-maintenance at the same time.  The Annapana and then Vipassana provide the relaxation and slowing down of mind to allow me to do this.

Some one told me that the mind needs to do what it needs.  I just try and get my body and mind to the point that I am aware of its machinations and try to listen to what it's telling me.

Warmly, 
-Joe

[pamojjam]

Hi Flipasso and Joe,

Where did the buddha say the mind was?
Where does sensation lye here?

I find it very usefull to take such questions into your practice and find an understanding according to your own silent experience there.

But since the ability to distinct between mind and matter, Nama and Rupa, is traditionally considered somehow essiential for the practice of Satipatthana, maybe the following excerpt of a discourse in the Vipassana tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin and Mother Sayama might be fruitful to read:

'The Seven Stages of Purification'

For an easy distinction between nama-rupa I think one could say matter is what is felt - and mind is what is aware of.

On an aside: ...

what you describe sounds very similiar to 'focusing' to me: 'Searching for the Truth that Is Far Below the Search'
And has been integrated into their way of teaching Vipassana by teachers as Jack Kornfield.

kind regards..