Author Topic: The Beautiful Face of a Woman  (Read 16698 times)

rideforever

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 08:02:50 AM »
The Dhamma did for me in about five years what would have taken twenty years in therapy.
Is this a promise ?  Five years I have ... sounds too easy !

I am making terrific progress actually, but I don't know how long the road is.


Vivek

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 08:46:19 AM »
Quote
Thus, my concern is that "trusting" and "revering" the body can easily be construed to mean, "Do what your body tells you." And where does that lead? The person filled with anger will hear their body say, "Fight!" The person filled with lust will hear their body say, "Do it!"  You can try surrendering to these impulses, but that doesn't bring real freedom. The choices that you make plants seeds in the body/mind, leading you to make the same choices again and again, even if those choices make you suffer.  Sometimes, your choices might make you happy, but that's still bondage.
Hi KN, with due respect to what you've said but, I don't think we have to take it to this extreme. To say "Do what your body tells you" and to follow that directive is to take what Osho has said, to the extreme and thus, misses the point of what he is saying. And again, when you say "can be easily construed", easily construed by whom? everyone? I am sure you will agree that that will not be the case. Almost all of Osho's discourses on Tantra has been framed in a context where the basic belief (and this has remained unchanged for generations) that the body is the enemy to spiritual progress is being questioned; that one must not give any importance to the body at all if one wishes to advance spiritually. Because, unless that belief is questioned and dealt with, there is no point in learning Tantra. Unless this premise of accepting the body as it is and giving it its due place, it is difficult to begin in Tantra in a fruitful way. I think that is why in almost all of Osho's discourses related to Tantra, he starts with the body and how the body has been shunned and all that. I guess, it is all about middle path: give the body its due importance, but not to be too concerned about it. If the conceptual frame within which these discourses are to be interpretted, is discarded, that will surely be inviting troubles.

Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

kidnovice

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 05:23:58 PM »
Hi KN, with due respect to what you've said but, I don't think we have to take it to this extreme. To say "Do what your body tells you" and to follow that directive is to take what Osho has said, to the extreme and thus, misses the point of what he is saying. And again, when you say "can be easily construed", easily construed by whom? everyone?

At the very least, Osho and his followers seemed to construe it this way (sorry if this veers into unskillful speech, but Osho is the best evidence of the extreme).  Granted, I don't think they turned to violence per se (though there was something essentially violent about the whole poisoning fiasco), but definitely lust and greed. I really don't think this is a coincidence.

I've also just chosen the most obvious examples for the purpose of discussion. At a deeper level, I think it comes down to the role that the body plays in the formation of craving/attachment. This can be quite subtle, but spiritual progress hinges on a person understanding this truth. And to arrive at this understanding, loving awareness of the body is paramount. But revering it? In the end, I think that's the seed of bondage.

Almost all of Osho's discourses on Tantra has been framed in a context where the basic belief (and this has remained unchanged for generations) that the body is the enemy to spiritual progress is being questioned; that one must not give any importance to the body at all if one wishes to advance spiritually.

I absolutely agree that this view must be let-go before someone can make real progress on the path. To see the body as the enemy makes it impossible to really practice. However, I don't think the solution is the opposite extreme.

I guess, it is all about middle path: give the body its due importance, but not to be too concerned about it. If the conceptual frame within which these discourses are to be interpretted, is discarded, that will surely be inviting troubles.

I completely agree. It is important to know why a teacher offered a particular instruction, but this doesn't make it any more skillful. Understanding the context just helps you see how the teaching arose.

In this case, an extreme position (the body is your enemy) triggered an extreme reaction (the body should be revered). As you said, a middle path is needed. 

With metta,
KN
May we cultivate the serenity to accept the things we cannot change; the compassion to change the things we can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

Matthew

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 08:03:16 PM »
rideforever,

...
On the question of chosing from the 2 paths Yoga (the path of skill and effort) and Tantra (surrender), Osho says that the first is far easier to be self-deluded in ... because making an effort appeals to the ego.  The 2nd might be coarse and ugly, but it's a question of what will keep you loose so you don't get stuck.  Also he said that the mind in this era is far too individualistic (the ego is too formed) for the first path to be used ... in centuries past people felt identity with community / land / spirit and destroying the ego was a small part of your identity ... but today the ego is all there is so it's harder to with effort remove it. 
...


Having lived at a Darma Centre where both where practiced, it seemed the Tantra students were more confused and egotistical than the average layman. Seriously messed up people.

The Dhamma did for me in about five years what would have taken twenty years in therapy.
Is this a promise ?  Five years I have ... sounds too easy !

I am making terrific progress actually, but I don't know how long the road is.

The road is as long as you make it. It's good to know you are making progress and recognise that. Knowing where you are is quite useful.

:)

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Vivek

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 04:27:57 AM »
Quote from: KN
In this case, an extreme position (the body is your enemy) triggered an extreme reaction (the body should be revered). As you said, a middle path is needed. 
Hey KN, I now see what your view is. Thanks for clarifying that you consider revering the body as an extreme reaction, while I consider it as part of the middle path. I guess, we can continue to disagree on this, skillfully of course. :)

Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Jeeprs

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 04:40:50 AM »

I am doing mostly straight Vipassana, not Osho meditations ... but his refusal to settle into anything speaks to me.  And Vipassana seems like tantra to me ... what is the experience of the breath and body ?
 

I discovered a book by Rajneesh at Sydney Uni Library in about 1981, before he became (in)famous.  We was previously an academic, you know. Lecturer in history of religions, etc, at an Indian university. Very clever man, no doubt, and knew it, and how to exploit it. I read his little nuggets from time to time, he knows his stuff but I didn't like him.   I think Goenka is a much more reliable and down to earth. By their fruits, etc.

As I said above, I think tantra is a very hard thing to understand, or conversely, extremely easy to misunderstand. In this day and age in the spiritual supermarket it is all laid out on the table. Tantra sir? What kind you like? Hindu, buddhist, we have plenty. Help yourself. Delusion comes in all shape and sizes, and usually looks delicious. So I am very suspicious. I want to stick with very basic Dhamma. If anything more 'advanced' is required, I am sure it will come along.

rideforever

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 09:17:03 AM »

I am doing mostly straight Vipassana, not Osho meditations ... but his refusal to settle into anything speaks to me.  And Vipassana seems like tantra to me ... what is the experience of the breath and body ?
 

I discovered a book by Rajneesh at Sydney Uni Library in about 1981, before he became (in)famous.  We was previously an academic, you know. Lecturer in history of religions, etc, at an Indian university. Very clever man, no doubt, and knew it, and how to exploit it. I read his little nuggets from time to time, he knows his stuff but I didn't like him.   I think Goenka is a much more reliable and down to earth. By their fruits, etc.

As I said above, I think tantra is a very hard thing to understand, or conversely, extremely easy to misunderstand. In this day and age in the spiritual supermarket it is all laid out on the table. Tantra sir? What kind you like? Hindu, buddhist, we have plenty. Help yourself. Delusion comes in all shape and sizes, and usually looks delicious. So I am very suspicious. I want to stick with very basic Dhamma. If anything more 'advanced' is required, I am sure it will come along.

I have no idea why I have become the voice of Osho here, I am not a sannyas and am not in contact with any Osho people - although I have been to 4 Osho centres briefly during my rounds.

You say tantra is a very hard thing to understand.  But tantra is just naturalness.  And you say this is hard to understand - maybe you are right ... the repression / conditioning we experience in society today did not begin when we were born, but has been growing in magnitude for thousands of years ... we are heavily heavily brainwashed - hence yes, naturalness is very hard to understand.  You see all the people today cutting off parts of their body, or enlarging other parts of their body - shocking.

Quote
Having lived at a Darma Centre where both where practiced, it seemed the Tantra students were more confused and egotistical than the average layman. Seriously messed up people.

You have mentioned this before ... so where was it ?  An Osho centre, or where ?  And what did you see ?

My personal experience of meeting sannyas at Tapoban centre in Nepal, in McLeod Ganj in India, and OshoLeela and Croydon Hall in the UK ... my experience of the Osho people is that they were quite normal, fairly intelligent, and happy.  Smiling, laughing, hugging, joking ... yeah, this was common to see.  And they went for it with the dancing and screaming meditations.  I never saw anyone who was really screwed up - I am sure there are some.  And I certainly did not see any cult.  The centres have as a common factor that they practice Dynamic Meditation in the morning (screaming cathartic meditation), and they do a 'White Robe' in the evening (watch osho videos).  i.e. they listen directly to the testimony of the master - no books, no interpretations ... they watch his mouth moving.  And this provides a very great barrier against any cult, because no-one can re-interpret his works, there is no message anyway ... just a relentless drive to shake you up and not let you settle.

In Nepal they have a large meditation hall with windows overlooking the forest.  And in the evening we all dance a bit, the old and the very young in their white robes whilring about like children.  You can see the old are old because they have not cut their hair off and the grey rivers whirl about gayly.  And then after the dancing we all sit in the darkness, listening to the crickets in the dark blue sky and the stars outside and we sit silently and move into a meditation, as our bodies cooled down in the air.  Alone now, but together, restfully entering into ourselves.  It was beautiful to dance like that, like a child again - I am 40 - and beautiful then to sit together the old and the young, sitting as you choose, lying on the floor or propped against a wall - no rules, no rows, no devout upright buddhists ... no nothing like that, just free people being with their freedom.

There is something in that that retains an ancient community life, or the life of a cohort of pagans.  Some collective effort to celebrate, and always ending with a deep returning to yourself in meditation.  Where else could you find this.  Those days I was proud once more to be human, outside ... and in.  Proud to be a human being, outside and in.  It's rare that I feel like that.

Yes, shaving your head and sitting bolt upright in silent rows memorising sutras ... yes ... it's shocking in its mercilessness.  I plan to go this road, but only if all else fails.  It is only one step from suicide. 


I was thinking of 2 people who are hopelessly lost in their sexual attachments.  One of them, a buddhist monk, works tirelessly in a monastery reciting sutras, studying, and repressing as best he can his burgeoning desires, the feelings in his loins he wished were not their, he forces them down.  And the second, an Osho sannyasin, he is lost too dancing around and having sex like a dog with anyone around.  - Now Who is in a better position ?  This is my question who is in a better position ?  The second is lost but not actively forcing away his experience, maybe he will stumble on the truth; he has at least taken the risk of showing the world who he is, what he is feeling ... there is honesty in that.  Maybe he will continue like this till the end and die in ignorance.  Maybe as he gets older and less horny, his openness will lead naturally to the path.  For the first ... well it's not so simple - so many things to face - opening up and coming face to face with your life is shattering and perhaps he will hide from it till death clinging his sutras to his chest as he is loaded into the coffin ... and his worldly life was also nothing, he despised it and killed it long ago. 

Who is in a better position ?


I want to say once more that I am practicing Goenka Vipassana, that's all.  So why am I supporting Osho ????  What sense does it make to support him when I have a serious and devout practice.  Well, he is a great spiritual friend.  He makes me laugh, he shatters any structures that I make in my mind (and surely my mind can yoke anything to its needs) ... and when you look into his eyes, you know he is not joking.

Buddha was perfect in his exploration of the inner.  But mystics have always attained in the mountains, in the inner, in solitary.  And yes it is a tremendous inner 'attainment' - for want a better word. 

But Osho faced the outer and the inner at the same time !  What guts.  Sheer guts.




« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:24:52 AM by rideforever »

Vivek

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2011, 09:26:03 AM »
Quote from: RF
I was thinking of 2 people who are hopelessly lost in their sexual attachments.  One of them, a buddhist monk, works tirelessly in a monastery reciting sutras, studying, and repressing as best he can his burgeoning desires, the feelings in his loins he wished were not their, he forces them down.  And the second, an Osho sannyasin, he is lost too dancing around and having sex like a dog with anyone around.  - Now Who is in a better position ?  This is my question who is in a better position ?
To me, it seems that both are in the extremes; both are missing the middle path. I think it is not a question of who is better than whom, rather, whose path leads to long-term happiness. The monk definitely does not look set for that. The case of the Osho sannyasin, in this particlar instance you have taken, does not look much into that either; having unbridled sex does not look promising enough for long-term happiness.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Andrew

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    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2011, 11:11:56 AM »
Hi ride forever,

Both are in a great position, only a human being can realise the truth.

Who does wake up is anyone's guess. Roll a dice, flip a coin. That's as good an answer as any.

love

andy
getting it done

chintan

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 04:26:11 PM »
Hi RF - you are the only one who seem to have able to balance both Osho and Goenka internally - serious compliments man. I enjoy Osho discourses and they leave me with a feeling of nice warmth but little guidance of how to practice in real life. I completely agree that Osho was a non conformist to the core - that was his positioning - and I have a sneaky feeling that he evolved it to attract the US / Western followers and polished it once it brought him success.

Your definition of tantra is unique - my understanding of tantra is very different - its rituals, attempts to gain supra-natural powers  - surrender is not the theme of tantra - bhakti yoga is centered around surrender.

You say tantra is a very hard thing to understand.  But tantra is just naturalness.  And you say this is hard to understand - maybe you are right ... the repression / conditioning we experience in society today did not begin when we were born, but has been growing in magnitude for thousands of years ... we are heavily heavily brainwashed - hence yes, naturalness is very hard to understand.  You see all the people today cutting off parts of their body, or enlarging other parts of their body - shocking.

Us living in society is an outcome of the natural evolution - if it has made us brainwashed and repressed / conditioned it is so because it has its advantages in the game of natural selection and evolution - I really dont know what is better - a lone hunter in Amazonian forest or a stressed / repressed urban dweller. Some of us - and it includes most of this Sangha - consciously want to break out of the repressed / brainwashed mode of living and in that process are attempting to see the reality of a beautiful woman's face and the ephemeral nature of it all.

Metta to all.. including my dear Osho who has in some way introduced me to Buddha..

Matthew

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 04:31:07 PM »
You gotta love Osho ...

though I'm sure that was the first rule of the Sangha too ;D
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

ivana

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 07:14:42 PM »
- I really dont know what is better - a lone hunter in Amazonian forest or a stressed / repressed urban dweller.

I have same question, but it seems that the dweller could more easy become the hunter then the hunter becomes the dweller.
Take care
Ivana

Jeeprs

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 08:46:13 PM »

You say tantra is a very hard thing to understand.  But tantra is just naturalness.  And you say this is hard to understand - maybe you are right ... the repression / conditioning we experience in society today did not begin when we were born, but has been growing in magnitude for thousands of years ... we are heavily heavily brainwashed - hence yes, naturalness is very hard to understand.  You see all the people today cutting off parts of their body, or enlarging other parts of their body - shocking.

What I mean is if you study tantra formally, there is a lot in it. It is easy to understand on an impressionistic level, to form ideas about it. In the original context in which it was taught, it was surrounded by many difficulties. You had to qualify yourself to learn it, and practice under a master. Unless you were deemed competent and serious, there was no way to get taught anything. In the traditional societies, the tantric teachings were secret. The thing about the post-modern world is that this information is now available freely in the spiritual supermarket. With respect, I don't think the casual observer has the vaguest idea what any of it means. It is trendy, secret, mysterious, and, best of all, it's got sex. Hence my cynicism. Not to say that it can't be done, but that often it is not what it appears. As I mentioned, I went to some very casual empowerment sessions about a year ago. I had the distinct impression that nobody involved had any real understanding of what it all meant. And if you don't understand it, basically it is indistinguishable from magic spells.

I agree with what you say about our millions of years of conditioning and seeing through it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:48:19 PM by Jeeprs »

kidnovice

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2011, 04:45:26 PM »
I guess, we can continue to disagree on this, skillfully of course. :)

Yes, I think we can too.  :)

With metta,
KN
May we cultivate the serenity to accept the things we cannot change; the compassion to change the things we can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

rideforever

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2011, 05:58:48 PM »
What I mean is if you study tantra formally, there is a lot in it. It is easy to understand on an impressionistic level, to form ideas about it. In the original context in which it was taught, it was surrounded by many difficulties. You had to qualify yourself to learn it, and practice under a master. Unless you were deemed competent and serious, there was no way to get taught anything. In the traditional societies, the tantric teachings were secret. The thing about the post-modern world is that this information is now available freely in the spiritual supermarket. With respect, I don't think the casual observer has the vaguest idea what any of it means. It is trendy, secret, mysterious, and, best of all, it's got sex. Hence my cynicism. Not to say that it can't be done, but that often it is not what it appears. As I mentioned, I went to some very casual empowerment sessions about a year ago. I had the distinct impression that nobody involved had any real understanding of what it all meant. And if you don't understand it, basically it is indistinguishable from magic spells.

I agree with what you say about our millions of years of conditioning and seeing through it.

Yeah, sure there is a lot of garbage out there called 'tantra'.  A lot.  But it is like Christianity ... who bothers to point out it's garbage ? - it's just obvious.  If you are spending time being angry at it, you are just as much caught up in it - you are not free of it.

'If you study tantra formally' - formally as in mind, right !  Yeah, if you study anything with the mind you are going the wrong way.

'In the original context' - tantra is just surrendering to existence.  There is no original context.  I assume you are talking about Buddhist estoricism with lots of weird practices.  This is pretty much why I am suspicious of what is called Buddhism, it's just another confused primate power structure.  Just sit, that's all.  Or walk your own way like Gautama.

'hence my cynicism' - yes cynicism is very very understandable.  But are you cynical of it ?  Are you cynical of your cynicism ?  Or does it give you a nice ego boost - maybe anger covered up ?  I see that a lot.  Look for Truth, if any exists.  No books, no teachings, no effort, surrender.

There isn't anything complicated in existence. 


Andrew

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    • Letting Go.
Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2011, 05:15:02 AM »
hi rideforever,

I get the feeling that what this means to you is not why you post this stuff, it seems to me that you are on an evangelism mission  :angel:. (had to find somewhere to use that smiley)

Just tell us why it is meaningful to you; I didn't signed up for the semantics and psycho-analysis lesson.

You would meet with far less resistance to your posts if they were more along the lines of "I've been learning about this" , and "I'm finding in meditation.."
and less "this is how it is, if you don't agree, it's probably your ego" vibe. You've got the gift son, just need to learn how to use it.

love

andy
getting it done

Jeeprs

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2011, 06:19:49 AM »
I am not meaning to be contrary, either. Just expressing a point of view. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with Chogyam Trungpa? Most of what I know about Tantra, which is not very much, I picked up from reading his books. I will see if I can find some passages later.

Matthew

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2011, 01:35:00 PM »
Jeeprs,

My foundation in Dhamma began when I lived at a Dhamma centre in the Shambhala Tradition for eighteen months. Trungpa definitely did a lot to bring Dhamma to the west however there remain pervading questions regarding his sanity towards the end of his life. He had many concubines in his Sangha. He was alcoholic and died of sclerosis of the liver, spent the last few months of life incontinent and drunk in bed and left a Dharma Heir "The Vajra Regent" who had Aids and slept with many students leading to their infection with HIV because he thought his high spiritual practice/realisation would mean he would not infect them (big ego trip going on there).

It took the Sangha until now to really recover from the mess he left at the end of his life. His early writings have a clarity which is sometimes quite sublime. The totality of what he did for the Dhamma is something history will tell.

Many of the Tantra students in the Sangha are highly egotistical and confused. Many are alcoholic using the fact Trungpa taught "mindful drinking" and that one could drink and keep mindfulness as an excuse for their alcoholism. The students who knew him personally worshipped him. I have only met his son who is a little self indulgent frankly but now leads the Sangha - and seems to be doing a reasonably good job of it.

After living in that place I vowed never to follow tantra as I saw first hand what it did to many westerners. It made them more egotistical and that got worse the longer they did it. There were exceptions but they were few.

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Morning Dew

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2011, 02:13:52 PM »
What is Tantra anyway? In short!
I Googled but got lots of nonsense like mantra and yantra and invoking deities and such.

Quote
I saw first hand what it did to many westerners. It made them more egotistical and that got worse the longer they did it.

I didnt want to tell you this but the way it looks to me you are screwed  ???

cheeeEEEEEE

Jeeprs

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Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2011, 03:52:54 AM »
Jeeprs,

My foundation in Dhamma began when I lived at a Dhamma centre in the Shambhala Tradition for eighteen months. Trungpa definitely did a lot to bring Dhamma to the west however there remain pervading questions regarding his sanity towards the end of his life. He had many concubines in his Sangha. He was alcoholic and died of sclerosis of the liver, spent the last few months of life incontinent and drunk in bed and left a Dharma Heir "The Vajra Regent" who had Aids and slept with many students leading to their infection with HIV because he thought his high spiritual practice/realisation would mean he would not infect them (big ego trip going on there).

Thanks for sharing that. I was well aware of it, actually. I was very much an admirer from the time of the publication of Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, and was extremely disappointed when all of that happened. There was an article in one of the New Age magazines - called Common Ground, I think - which broke the whole story in the late 1980's.  I was very disillusioned at the time and many of the people I knew were very shocked by it also - we all tended to idolize him a bit.  But it is a salutary reminder that people are human at the end of the day.

Anyway, the specific thing I had in mind was his idea of the relationship between Hinayana-Mahayana-Vajrayana. He said that one way of thinking about them is that they are different aspects of the path, so it is not as if one supersedes the other. Hinayana is the part of the teaching that is concerned with discipline, getting the basics down, understanding the rules and implementing them. It is not as if this is abandoned when or if you start on the other aspects of the path. It is very much the foundation of the practice. That is one of the reasons I am dubious about 'advanced teachings'. I really want to stick with the basics, although nothing about Buddhism is really very basic. But what I mean is, for the next couple of years while I am doing this degree course, I want to try and maintain a disciplined practice and just watch the basics. The higher parts of the path tend to look after themselves if you do that.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: The Beautiful Face of a Woman
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 11:02:24 AM »
..... That is one of the reasons I am dubious about 'advanced teachings'. I really want to stick with the basics, although nothing about Buddhism is really very basic. But what I mean is, for the next couple of years while I am doing this degree course, I want to try and maintain a disciplined practice and just watch the basics. The higher parts of the path tend to look after themselves if you do that.

My preceptor, an eminent Tibetan Tantric Master says that Shamatha "is the beginning, the middle and the end of the path".
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

 

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Last post September 21, 2016, 07:25:13 PM
by Dharmic Tui