Author Topic: Struggling in calm abiding meditation  (Read 27820 times)

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2011, 03:11:53 PM »
Yes let it talk but also notice it and let go of it. You let go of it by shifting your awareness towards the breathing relaxation and by feeling the bodily sensations. There is a difference between thinking the thought and noticing the thought.

Thinking the thought is like this;
I must go to work tomorrow; I hate work; why do I have to work; my boss hates me; what if I loose my work; I must pay my rent; I need the money to buy bread; I love bread; mmm bread and butter is great; etc ... this is thinking the thought and is not mindful  ;)

Noticing the thought is like this;
I must go to work tomorrow; Noticing, disengaging and going back to calm breathing and feeling the body sensations; in breath, out breath in breath out breath ...; I hate work; Noticing, disengaging and going back to calm breathing and feeling the body sensations; in breath, out breath in breath out breath ...; my boss hates me; Noticing, disengaging and going back to calm breathing and feeling the body sensations; in breath, out breath in breath out breath ...; mmm bread and butter is great; Noticing, disengaging and going back to calm breathing and feeling the body sensations; in breath, out breath in breath out breath ...;   :)

Does this make any sense?
Simple realy. Even for me some days can be more restless than others. The thing is to understand that nothing is permanent so the restless day will pass and new more joyful and blissful day will come, etc ... Today I feel rather restless, on and off the cushion, but that doesnt matter because everything changes. After a sunny day comes rain and clouds and after the rain and clouds comes the sunny day again  :)

Friendly Che

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2011, 06:49:10 AM »
Thank you Che for the advise on the "mind talk".

Quote
Does samatha meditation is the path toward jhana?

Yes, Shamatha or Calm-abiding will lead to Jhana states. Jhanas will not happen if you try to force it, so please remind your self that Shamatha is about letting go of clinging to Desire and Aversion and not about clinging to Desiring Jhana states by forcing it by wanting it to happen.
Focus on feeling the body sensations and on relaxing the body with each in and out breath  :) OK  :) Notice, Let go and Relax.

I thought Jhana state requires "Deep Concentration". What is that mean by Deep Concentration? 

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2011, 08:19:26 AM »
Established Mindfulness is Deep Concentration  :)

You are concentrating deeply when you breath out and you are aware that you breath out, when you breath in and you are aware that you breath in .... and so on, unbreakable mindfulness of the breath at all times is deep concentration (I feel) without being entangled into thoughts  :)
In the beginning it is hard not to get entangled into thoughts that is why we notice thoughts and go back to breathing in and out and relaxing into the anxious body so it becomes soft and calm again  :)

We are breaking an ignorant habit and creating a new mindful one. It takes time, patience and dedication. Try to read less and practice more if you can. By reading new books you just add more ideas to an already anxious mind. Calm it down instead.

Friendly Che

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2011, 02:07:58 PM »
Upset mind keep talking!

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2011, 02:18:11 PM »
Jeffrey my man, here is something I wrote to another member, maybe it might help you;

Quote
No matter what you (read the monkey mind) come to decide you (the monkey mind) are deciding intellectually and therefor feeding your monkey mind by clinging to the concept you (the monkey mind) just decided to enforce. If your mind is indeed flooding your calmness then try to use that very monkey and give him a bit of work to attend to until the calmness and awareness gets established 

Let the Monkey set an alarm for an hour and forget about it by giving your monkey a task to notice each In and Out breath at all times. The monkey attends to the breathing and monkey notices In ... Out ... pause ... In ... Out ... "when is that alarm going to ring the bell"- monkey sais noticing that he has wondered away from the breathing and attending to it again ... In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... "this noticing and naming is just plain stupid" - monkey sais noticing he has wondered away from the actual breathing and attending to it again ... In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... .... .... .... .... at some stage you will feel this monkey mind staying somewhere in the background still noticing In ... Out ... Pause ... In ... Out ... and at the same time the calm awareness of all that Is will take place. Let go of the Monkey or if you feel it is engaging into thoughts again which it might ("Oh, look at this great feeling I just got into I must go to the forum and tell my Sangha all about it") let him attend to the breathing again as described above.

Try this one out for a week, give it a chance, and see if there is more calm developing in and out of your practice 

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2011, 02:26:18 PM »
I am kind of confused so do u mind pls explain

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2011, 02:44:17 PM »
Jeffrey, how would you describe your meditation session? What do you do?

Thanks.

Che

kidnovice

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    • Theravada: with nuts and bolts from Goenka-ji, and fine tuning from Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2011, 05:06:07 PM »
Hi Jeffrey,

You've been getting wonderful advice here, and its inspiring to hear about your budding practice. I hope you don't mind if I briefly offer a suggestion about the whole jhana thing.

"Jhana" is one of those words that has many different meanings, and most people (even advanced Buddhist teachers) can't agree on. Instead, focus on your truest intention: be calm.

You said it yourself. That's your aspiration, right? If you can learn to calmly observe the breath while sensing the body, this will lead to blissful experiences. But its the calm that matters most.  Indeed, training the mind to accept things as they are is vastly more wonderful than a fleeting moment of bliss.

If you think joy is missing from your life, then I would look at how you could make changes in your life that would make you happier. Allow meditation to simply be about cultivating the calm that you need. Let it be your safe harbor where you gently return to your anchor, never drifting too far away.

With metta,
KN
May we cultivate the serenity to accept the things we cannot change; the compassion to change the things we can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

Quardamon

  • Member
    • Teachers were: P.K.K. Mettavihari, Frits Koster, Nel Kliphuis. (In the line of Mahasi Sayadaw)
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2011, 08:16:22 PM »
Hello ramelec,

I will be upfront with you. You may not like my reaction. That is OK with me.

You introduced yourself at the start of this thread with one sentence.

I have anxiety disorder and slight depression, I started calm abiding meditation but it's been a big challenge  :((

You got a lot of reactions. If you responded on the forum at all, it was short and ended with a new question mostly.

You once told some more about yourself:

Andy, to calm my ego self

From your behaviour I conclude that you have a reason or reasons to hold back a lot. Maybe that is wise. Maybe you mistrust us. Maybe you mistrust the method. Maybe you do not dare to say to Che Quebuddha - there is the typo again!! - that this is all bullshit, and you wanted to quitt from the start. Maybe  . . .    (A lot is possible - you are in your situation and I am not. So I cannot know.)

Anyway, you are allowed to mistrust. Not everyone is helped by relaxation. Some need to make an overview first of their personality, with the help of a psychologist, to see how to proceed: build up some strength here, some support there, build realistic expectations, build a realistic picture of how and where you are safe and how and where not so safe; by making such an overview, one can do things little by little, according to a step-by-step plan.
I want to say more on this, but I will refrain until you give a reaction.

Please, take care of yourself. It is good to find support wherever you can.
So, that was me - putting my advice and limited view on the pile of reactions you have already.  :angel:  :-[

With respect,

Quardamon


P.S.: Does it somehow fit to you, to get far more reactions and actions towards you than that you can put out?
To put it into more dramatic words: Are you sometimes flooded or overwhelmed?
 

ramelec

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    • NEWBIE Mindfullness of Breath
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2011, 08:25:25 PM »
Pls don't get me wrong I have been stress and fearful of things going on with my life. I still will not quit.

Quardamon

  • Member
    • Teachers were: P.K.K. Mettavihari, Frits Koster, Nel Kliphuis. (In the line of Mahasi Sayadaw)
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2011, 08:41:56 PM »
O.K. Please be aware, that there are situations in which one does not want to have calm abiding or 'mindfulness' as the main cork to keep one up. In another thread, this link was mentioned:
http://www.jimhopper.com/mindfulness/
If you search there for;
If you have any of the following problems at times
you will find four cases mentioned, in which one needs to do extra things to make calm abiding safe.

I am sure you deserve a lot of respect.

ramelec

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    • NEWBIE Mindfullness of Breath
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2011, 11:26:35 PM »
I got anxious that I got stressed up leaving sort of anxiety attack. I can't sleep well and it been affecting my life n wife :'(

ramelec

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    • NEWBIE Mindfullness of Breath
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2011, 12:13:23 AM »
Jeffrey, how would you describe your meditation session? What do you do?

Thanks.

Che

This issue crops up recent like cases when I start mind said calm, mind said breath, and so on so forth. I hated that feeling as there is no quietness in mind. Now I get super anxious just to sit.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 01:09:03 AM by ramelec »

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2011, 02:36:26 AM »
Jeffrey, how would you describe your meditation session? What do you do?

Thanks.

Che

This issue crops up recent like cases when I start mind said calm, mind said breath, and so on so forth. I hated that feeling as there is no quietness in mind. Now I get super anxious just to sit.  But words I used are positive words like back into breathing, back into calm, etc. Is that ok

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2011, 04:56:51 AM »
perfect.
getting it done

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2011, 06:22:14 AM »
Quote
This issue crops up recent like cases when I start mind said calm, mind said breath, and so on so forth. I hated that feeling as there is no quietness in mind. Now I get super anxious just to sit.

Hi Jeffrey  :)

It is difficult for me to understand all you say because of the language barrier. You express your self in an unclear way leaving me in a position to guess what you mean. But worry not  :)

You say "mind said calm, mind said breath". You dont have to say anything, just relax with each in and out breath. Breathing In and FEELING (not saying) body relaxing, breathing Out and FEELING body relaxing.

You suffer at the first place because of the "talking mind" and by hating it and being impatient you are just making it "talk" even more. Separate your self from that talking mind but letting it talk, notice it and make it quiet by going back to being aware of the In and Out breath and feeling the body relaxing.

Learn to live in peace with that talking mind of yours. Just like this will the mind calm down. Suffering comes from having Desire and Aversion. This is what you are doing now causing your self to suffer more, you desire silent mind and you feel aversion towards the talking mind and would like to push it away. Wrong view! Stop with this! Stop and let it be as it is!  :) All you have to do is keep relaxing your body with each in and outbreath and be aware of all thoughts and emotions by noticing them and then letting go of them. By letting go of them I mean do not judge them (good, bed, anxious, talking mind, silent mind, hate, fear). Just let it be and keep calming, relaxing the body which stores all the stress in the first place.

You are running in a circle trying to get out of it to be happy but all you fail to see is that the only right way is to sit in the middle of the circle and observe all that is taking place in your head and body without engaging.

Meditation is simple. You ego self makes it complicated. Ego will be agitated if the body is agitated, so PLEASE focus on calming the body first and let the mind be for now, ok?

Friendly Che

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2011, 07:06:05 AM »
Che your answer make sense. I was suffering last 2 days because I was overwhelm by the talking mind and I am trying to push it away. The more I push it the agitated I become. I try again. Thanks.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
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    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2011, 04:52:32 PM »
Count on the in breath "one" and on the outbreath "one" and so on .. let mind be. If you get to ten or, if you get caught in thinking, return with no guilt to "one" and counting breaths. Do this for the first five minutes of any session, so a five minute session just do this. Still pay attention to body but don't cling to anything, even the counting. Do it for about 3 weeks then reduce it a minute a day to nothing and do shamatha the rest of the time.
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2011, 05:40:16 AM »
Thank you all. It's been very wonderful for helping me.
Even though it's just around 1 month I practise, I still feel sadness whenever in the day.  I have yet to find joy and what it means by joy and happiness.

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2011, 08:14:21 AM »
Quote
Even though it's just around 1 month I practise,

Already 1 month  :D well done my friend, time sure passes by fast. Just keep sitting every day and joy will come on its own accord do not seek for it, because it is not something you can reach with desire. Remember do not cling to anything just keep relaxing into the body.

You are doing great Jeffrey :)

Friendly Che

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2011, 09:00:10 AM »
Hello Che

I will sit whenever possible, be it 15 mins, 30 mins or 45 mins with Samatha meditation. 

Also, Can anyone elaborate what is the difference between Samatha and Vissapana meditation: http://www.wisdom-books.com/FocusDetail.asp?FocusRef=15

Thanks.

ramelec

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    • NEWBIE Mindfullness of Breath
Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2011, 09:19:16 AM »
Quote
Does samatha meditation is the path toward jhana?

Yes, Shamatha or Calm-abiding will lead to Jhana states. Jhanas will not happen if you try to force it, so please remind your self that Shamatha is about letting go of clinging to Desire and Aversion and not about clinging to Desiring Jhana states by forcing it by wanting it to happen.
Focus on feeling the body sensations and on relaxing the body with each in and out breath  :) OK  :) Notice, Let go and Relax.

Anyone reach more above Jhana states yet in this forum just by practising Samatha   :D

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2011, 02:23:09 PM »
Today sux big time as falling asleep while meditation. Problem with us is we get disturbed and lack of quality sleep.  :o

Morning Dew

Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2011, 07:31:35 PM »
Jeffrey I can not tell you much about Jhana, maybe others might have to say more to you about it.

Quote
I will sit whenever possible, be it 15 mins, 30 mins or 45 mins with Samatha meditation.

That is good my man  :) it doesnt matter how long you sit but that you sit every day at least once. When your anxiousness subside you will probably feel to sit longer and more often especially on days when free from work. The important thing is not to be too hard on yourself, take it easy. Good man!

Quote
Today sux big time as falling asleep while meditation. Problem with us is we get disturbed and lack of quality sleep.

It is OK this is totally normal and we all experience sleepiness every once in a while. To avoid sleepiness I started drinking more water (2 litres per day), exercise, I go to bed at 21,30h and get up 6h in the morning so I get plenty of sleep and lots of time to meditate in the morning.
When I get sleepy in meditation I close my eyes completely and observe the sleepiness  :D  after 10-15 minutes the sleepiness subsides and I feel awake again. The important thing is NOT to try to get rid of the sleepiness, because the more you fight against it the more sleepy you get, and in a case you are totally falling a sleep, well, just stop meditating and go to bed and actually get enough sleep.

I dont watch TV anymore in the evening because TV always agitates my mind.

Go for a short walk outside in the morning before meditating. I used to do 20 minutes Qigong in the morning before meditating it certainly helps. Yoga stretching can also help in waking up.

Che

ramelec

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Re: Struggling in calm abiding meditation
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2011, 11:21:01 PM »
Che thanks heaps.
What causes lack of sleep is the anxiety disordervthat trigger me up. It is rough and painful.

 

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