Thanks for that link, nibs. Its interesting, and reminds me that I like leigh brasington!
Same! He's one cool dude. Your Welcome.
I can't help but notice that even on that link, there are no sutta references conforming to the "dukkha nanas." Mostly, the references just discuss Equanimity onwards. Thus, I am still thinking that the Buddha didn't say much about the dukkha nanas.
Yes, I noticed that as well. My current subject to change theory is that the Buddha, having been perusing a lot of the suttas recently, taught primarily jhanas and using the jhanas as a jumping board to nibbana and path.
My current practice, which can be found at the Hamilton Project, "a letting go approach to jhanas", is showing me that the nanas are seemingly only experienced if a yogi bypasses the harder jhana absorptions and ops for a more "dry" insight approach via purely vipassana with minimal concentration. The dukkha nanas in particular are not a problem when one practices insight within the jhanas.
There is no support for the "dry" insight path in the suttas according to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's research:
"The role of jhana as a condition for transcendent discernment is one of the most controversial issues in the Theravada tradition. Three basic positions have been advanced in modern writings. One, following the commentarial tradition, asserts that jhana is not necessary for any of the four levels of Awakening and that there is a class of individuals — called "dry insight" meditators — who are "released through discernment" based on a level of concentration lower than that of jhana. A second position, citing a passage in the Canon [AN 3.88; MFU, pp. 103] stating that concentration is mastered only on the level of non-returning, holds that jhana is necessary for the attainment of non-returning and arahantship, but not for the lower levels of Awakening. The third position states that the attainment of at least the first level of jhana is essential for all four levels of Awakening.
Evidence from the Canon supports the third position, but not the other two."
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part3.html#part3-f
But the "dry" insight path is being taught a hell of a lot, in the past century up till now especially in Burma and the West. And people ARE getting results from it. People ARE getting path/cessation moments (stream entry at least). And jhana is certainly being bypassed.
So even though the Buddha does not mention a purely "dry" (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going on Thanissaro's research here) insight path, yogis taking this route are experiencing similar stages. And theses stages where picked up in the Visuddhimagga, probably from ancient yogis' experiences of a "dry" insight path and thus conceptualized, placed within the structure of development the Buddha expressed in some of the suttas (see the Leigh Brasington link above), and later made more popular by Mahasi Sayadaw among others.
So no, the Buddha doesn't mention the "dukkha nanas" specifically, perhaps because yogis of his time were taught to develop jhana and from there work towards awakening. The more abosrbed variety of jhana seem to allow a yogi to have a much easier time navigating the dark recesses of the mind or even making them a non-event. The 5 hinerances are already dealt with at least.
This is my own current experience. Thus we have the two paths to awakening talked of in the Visuddhimagga. "Dry" versus "Tranquil". A "dry" approach will take you through the nanas. A "tranquil" approach will take you through the same strata of mind (**see link below) in their more absorbed jhana versions. The dukkha nanas are a non-event in the "tranquil" path.
** I am adhering to the view that certain nanas correspond to certain jhanas: See here for more info:
http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/talking-in-jhanas.htmlSince you have alot more knowledge in this area, let me be upfront about what I'm thinking. I wonder if meditation done properly will NEVER amplify or generate dukkha in the mind. This is not to say that the "dark night" is avoidable, or that meditation shouldn't make us aware of those negativities which we have unknowingly been generating for ourselves. Indeed, sometimes meditation can/should heighten our awareness of our negativities. We can't avoid our kamma nor the viscissitudes inherent to life.
I believe the dukkha nanas are "suffered" because a mind is identifying with the arising and passing negative phenomena as support for an illusory self. Thus the unsatisfactory mental tension results and we have yogis talking of how hard the dukkha nanas are. Yeh, I think the level of suffering endured in the dukkha nanas or the absence of suffering, is subject to how strongly one's practice is, how much momentum one have in their practice, how strong one's concentration is, and how discerning of, dis-identified from, dispassionate of, equanimous with, dis-embedded from mentioned phenomena.
Like Matthew mentioned above: "(the dukkha nanas) can be mitigated, through strength of practice." Using the jhanas as a means to insight via a calm abiding mind will definite help reduce or completely avoid any falling prey to wrongly identifying and reacting to phenomena thus suffering a so called "dark night".
But the idea that proper meditation may amplify or exaggerate one's unskillful mental habits, that just seems off to me. This certainly happens, but I would think it is best understood as an indication that one is not meditating properly. Perhaps that's why the Buddha didn't talk much about it?
What do you think?
KN
I agree with all of what you said.
metta,
nibs