Author Topic: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?  (Read 11125 times)

dobe

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Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« on: January 20, 2011, 04:21:30 AM »
I think I'm starting to realize the truth of making your meditation a non-goal oriented practice, the wisdom of 'you are already enlightened.' 

First of all, it's supposedly true, all enlightened beings have said that...  But that doesn't mean go on with your usual daily affairs as most people do.  It means that when you sit, or preferably when you're always aware that you're aware(one pointedness of mind), you should not create any goals within yourself, as this creates expectations.  And as the weeks go by, when expectations aren't met, guilt is an automatic consequence...
"ugh, I need to put more hours on the cushion, I don't seem to be getting anywhere."
"ugh, maybe I'm doing something wrong... should I be focusing on this mantra? this part of my nose? maybe its my posture which is not allowing me full comfort..."
"ugh, if I was really spiritual.. Id drop this job/school/world and go join an ashram or monastery"
etc...

I say forget Enlightenment because there is nothing you can "do" to bring about its realization faster.  It is really a process that unfolds by itself when your intention is there.  Intention, I believe, is what really matters the most.  Intense intention, constantly.  Meditation is not hard, but all too often over complicated.

I'm slowly learning now how to bring meditation into my daily life, and I'm starting to see the effects.  By holding a Truth in mind throughout the day, in a meditative fashion, a contemplative fashion, realization of those Truths seem to manifest spontaneously.  I do not intellectually 'think-out' a truth.  Because it is a timeless truth, and I only need to realize it, when my awareness is there, life events seem to just present themselves in such a way that the truth becomes obvious(Say when you see the power of compassion).

To subjectively realize a certain Truth is really an awesome experience. Real joy.  The kinda joy that keeps you up late, feeling great for no reason at all.  You wonder how you didn't realize it before, it becomes hysterical.  It is one thing to hear about and study truth, its something else entirely to realize it.

This post is long enough... Some insights I just get the urge to post on this forum, hah!
I'd love feedback

amen,
Dobe


Jeeprs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2011, 06:54:16 AM »
generally I agree with you. One of the Lojong slogans (from Tibetan mind-training) is 'abandon all thoughts of fruition'. People say, well how can you do that, you will never progress. One answer is, it is true, you will never progress, because the aim is not to progress, but to die! (metaphorically speaking, of course - 'death of ego').

The realization I sometimes have is that 'this is as good as it gets'. If you're expecting life to be a bed of roses 'after you're enlightened', well you can forget it. It happened already a long time ago, and you've forgotten it. Having forgotten it, you look forward to it, when really it's been behind you all along. This is what the sat-gurus all say, anyway.

Morning Dew

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2011, 08:33:32 AM »
Once we get to the stage where we can kindly laught at the go-self it all gets much easier. I agree with you lads, there is nothing more to it than sitting, being as it is, no focus, no concentration, no effort, just being relaxed in sitting aware of allthat is coming into being.

All other mental arisings are carp and are to be kindly laughed at, with understanding. This is easy to say since one is to gain insight into it, but this too will come with practice.

Dark Nights happen only to those goal orientated, those who take that arising mental carp seriously and float in it. Step out of it AND do a reality check; All that is negative must be my ego self doings otherwise I would feel joyful. I am asured that I am riding my ego-self since I am so dark and unkind.
Since it is all in the mind therefor not real an illusion. There is nothing more to it but sitting and letting all what arisies be as it is, returning to relaxing the body.

Enlightenment is just a thorn in one's eye.

You are becoming wiser dobe my friend, keep at it  :)

Friendly Che

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2011, 09:39:00 AM »
Once we get to the stage where we can kindly laught at the go-self it all gets much easier. I agree with you lads, there is nothing more to it than sitting, being as it is, no focus, no concentration, no effort, just being relaxed in sitting aware of allthat is coming into being.

All other mental arisings are carp and are to be kindly laughed at, with understanding. This is easy to say since one is to gain insight into it, but this too will come with practice.

Dark Nights happen only to those goal orientated, those who take that arising mental carp seriously and float in it. Step out of it AND do a reality check; All that is negative must be my ego self doings otherwise I would feel joyful. I am asured that I am riding my ego-self since I am so dark and unkind.
Since it is all in the mind therefor not real an illusion. There is nothing more to it but sitting and letting all what arisies be as it is, returning to relaxing the body.

Enlightenment is just a thorn in one's eye


Sorry fellas,
Gonna have to disagree with you here.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, back me up,  bhante!


http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/CrossIndexed/Published/Meditation4/080212%20The%20Path%20Has%20a%20Goal.pdf
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 09:51:57 AM by nibs »
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Jeeprs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 10:13:02 AM »
I believe Kenneth Folk addresses a related question.

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 10:19:03 AM »
I believe Kenneth Folk addresses a related question.

Hmm, knowing Kenneth, and the recent developments in his own practice, he may word that slightly different these days. Not sure. But tis true. These views generally have come from meditative experience and not texts. Rigpa/primordial awareness/clear light/one taste   is an experience, a cool one and if you can rest in that continuously, I would say "you" would be stepping out of the way long enough, stream entry may result. ;)

nibs
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Jeeprs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 10:54:19 AM »
I don't see it as a contest or a conflict. They are different views, that is all, and we all know what is the teaching about 'clinging to views'. They are simply various perspectives.

I suppose to expand on that a little.  There is definitely a sense in which one must 'work diligently and have a goal to work towards'. But there is also a sense in which whatever you consciously do is a kind of clinging or grasping. In fact I remember reading that the emptiness-view is really only intended as an antidote to clinging to views, and that for he who clings to the emptiness view, there is no hope.

Certainly there are many paradoxical aspects to the teaching. It is not purely linear or progressive in a naive sense.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:58:15 AM by Jeeprs »

Vivek

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 11:16:17 AM »
I think the key here is balance: not be too much concerned about "progress", at the same time, not be so slack that you don't even keep up the daily practice. A kind of tension of the right amount is required. IMO, meditation should neither become a chore or obligation, nor, to the other extreme, an obsession.
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 11:47:09 AM »
meditation should neither become a chore or obligation, nor, to the other extreme, an obsession.

Obsession and desire to awaken with wisdom and balance brings results. nibs :)

"These four bases of power, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit. And how are the four bases of power developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit & great benefit?

"There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

"He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence...

"He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on intent...

"He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on discrimination...


From the Iddhipada-vibhanga sutta translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.020.than.html
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Vivek

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 11:52:54 AM »
Desire and obsession are different. Desire by itself does not become obsession, unless one invests one's own self-worth and well-being on the object of desire. IMO, the desire to be liberated is a wholesome one, but may not be taken to the point of obsession.

Your quote seems to prove my point of keeping the balance:
Quote
'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active..
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2011, 12:43:41 PM »
Desire and obsession are different. Desire by itself does not become obsession, unless one invests one's own self-worth and well-being on the object of desire. IMO, the desire to be liberated is a wholesome one, but may not be taken to the point of obsession.

Your quote seems to prove my point of keeping the balance:
Quote
'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active..



From my own experience and that of other yogis, obsession, a healthy type of obsession, not like playing video games 24/7 or obsessed with drugs or a beautiful women, but an obsession mixed with a desire to awaken as the goal, and the knowledge that it takes a momentum in maintaining awareness of the very moment, no gaps, no wandering mind (unless that is the object), no off with the faeries, no "breaks", no slacking off, consistent, persistent wonderful resolve to be ever present in the very moment continuously with whatever arises, not just during sitting times, but at all waking times, toilet times, eating times, brushing teeth times, noticing and noting all phenomena that takes centre stage, with a momentum unlike any other experienced before. That is the type of obsession I talk of as being the type that will carry one far. It may take awhile to work up to that type of 24/7 awareness. It can be done in 7 days according to the Buddha, and mentioned if I remember the Satipatthana course Goenkaji gives. With that type of obsessive healthy drive to be aware of every moment you are awake, it can be done. A healthy obsession has proven useful, IMHO. But, each has to work that out themselves.

:)

metta
nibs
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 12:55:33 PM by nibs »
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

dobe

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2011, 01:42:46 PM »
Nibs you have a point.  A good one I think, but talking about obsession to new guys can give them the idea they need to do what they are doing more and harder.

Actually, this whole meditation/concentration practice eventually does become an "obsession."  It starts to drive you, it becomes effortless.  But to try too hard too early can be counter productive I think.  Atleast for me, early on, I tried to sit formally way too much, and I was on this forum posting about "When along the path does sitting become enjoyable?" 

I was trying too hard, I needed to take lots of breaks... and I found that short sporadic bursts of meditation was better than long extended periods.  Now the whole process is becoming easier, but whenever I start to sit to try and get deeper in meditation or 'to' anything, I always seem to regret having a goal, however subtle the goal may be.  All my insights and seeming progress just happens of its own.  But if your motivation is ever lacking, maybe reminding yourself of the fruits of meditation is beneficial.

But my intention, always, throughout the day, every day, whenever my awareness is there is like an obsession.
eventually this obsession will probably have me sitting 8-9hrs a day easily, forgetting to eat meals, and eventually breathing wont even be interesting. lol

like vivek said, I don't think its the sort of unhealthy obsession like wanting a new car so bad and working crazy hours to get it.  Its not the kind of obsession that you think to yourself "is all what I'm doing and 'sacrificing' worth it really?"  It just becomes who you are, I think at a certain point it actually becomes hard to even turn back.

I think we just need to avoid creating extremes with our ego.

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2011, 01:49:36 PM »
You make good points , dobe!

That healthy obsession does at some stage just become sort of the norm after a long period of time of regular practice. For new meditators, you are right that it could be taken in an unbalanced way. Ideally, it is something to work towards. Onward and upward!

:)
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Matthew

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 02:15:34 PM »
I believe Kenneth Folk addresses a related question.

Hmm, knowing Kenneth, and the recent developments in his own practice, he may word that slightly different these days. Not sure. But tis true. These views generally have come from meditative experience and not texts. Rigpa/primordial awareness/clear light/one taste   is an experience, a cool one and if you can rest in that continuously, I would say "you" would be stepping out of the way long enough, stream entry may result. ;)

nibs

Seconded. Your Dhamma knowledge excels nibs.

Warmly,

Matthew
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ivana

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 06:31:29 PM »
I think I'm starting to realize the truth of making your meditation a non-goal oriented practice, the wisdom of 'you are already enlightened.' 

I start to see that always I put something after my meditation as a non-goal oriented practice it is going away of good practice.

Quardamon

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 08:19:49 PM »
Che Quebuddha:
Quote
Dark Nights happen only to those goal orientated, those who take that arising mental carp seriously and float in it. Step out of it AND do a reality check; All that is negative must be my ego self doings otherwise I would feel joyful.

I disagree with the idea that entering the dark night can be avoided if one does vipassana.
I suppose it can be avoided, O.K. That should be then by training relaxation, training concentration, then entering pleasant (or neutral) states and go there if you need to or want it. But if one grows a keen awareness, as in vipassana, it is different.

For good order I will start a separate thread on that.

Be well, and be informed.

Quardamon




Matthew

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 10:26:23 PM »
Avoiding the Dark night leads to not seeing the light. It is part of the path for almost everyone. At some point you come face to face with yourself. Strength of practice determines how you negotiate this.
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dobe

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 11:37:30 PM »
well thank you all for the feedback.

I think It is more how you hold your goals within yourself, they can be useful guides as well as a detriments.  Just goes to show you how much this whole practice is a do it yourself kinda thing.  There is no set in stone guidelines.  Because of language, every bit of advice is situational and can mean something different in a different context, for a different person and where they are at.  People mix levels, or states of awareness etc.

Regardless I'm glad for the dialogue, gets me thinking

Vivek

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 06:55:57 AM »
Quote
From my own experience and that of other yogis, obsession, a healthy type of obsession, not like playing video games 24/7 or obsessed with drugs or a beautiful women, but an obsession mixed with a desire to awaken as the goal, and the knowledge that it takes a momentum in maintaining awareness of the very moment, no gaps, no wandering mind (unless that is the object), no off with the faeries, no "breaks", no slacking off, consistent, persistent wonderful resolve to be ever present in the very moment continuously with whatever arises, not just during sitting times, but at all waking times, toilet times, eating times, brushing teeth times, noticing and noting all phenomena that takes centre stage, with a momentum unlike any other experienced before. That is the type of obsession I talk of as being the type that will carry one far. It may take awhile to work up to that type of 24/7 awareness. It can be done in 7 days according to the Buddha, and mentioned if I remember the Satipatthana course Goenkaji gives. With that type of obsessive healthy drive to be aware of every moment you are awake, it can be done. A healthy obsession has proven useful, IMHO. But, each has to work that out themselves.
:) Ah well, there must have been some confusion around the meaning both of us ascribe to "obsession". I get your point now. By the way, admire your erudition, nibs. Great inputs.   
Let's go beyond this illusion, shall we?

Morning Dew

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 08:49:11 AM »
I think It is more how you hold your goals within yourself, they can be useful guides as well as a detriments.  Just goes to show you how much this whole practice is a do it yourself kinda thing.  There is no set in stone guidelines.  Because of language, every bit of advice is situational and can mean something different in a different context, for a different person and where they are at.  People mix levels, or states of awareness etc.

dobe of all you nailed it  :D good man.

Of all our "experienced" meditators you are the one that actualy wrote down the wise words "people mix levels, or states of awareness" the others seem to have missed this very important fact because their heads are up their ...  ;) or else  :D
They talk about their own level failing to see that you like me are just starting to scartch the surface of meditation. Obsessed indeed some are, which makes me think this medition business can be a tricky bastard fooling you around especialy when reading other peoples ideas and trying to walk other peoples path.

Quote from this Thanissaro "who" of yours from the very pdf you linked to;
Quote
People often have immature attitudes about goals, which is why some
teachers say to drop all idea of goals when you meditate
. That may be a useful
attitude for short-term meditation, but for the long term it leads to experienced
meditators whose experience of meditation is of going nowhere, and who
develop a perverse pride around their nowhere as well. The long-term solution is
to develop a mature attitude toward your goal,

Who decides when one has mature goals??? Can this maturity not be just a simple ego becoming more confortable in practice and Learnig the Rules of The Game??? Ever heard of the wolf in sheep's clothing? Please do not answer this question it is for you to contemplate it for a while. I need no answer but maybe you do my frined.

Avoiding the Dark night leads to not seeing the light. It is part of the path for almost everyone. At some point you come face to face with yourself. Strength of practice determines how you negotiate this.

Exactly my point if you read through it again or better if you look at it through my eyes, which brings us back to what dobe wrote above  :)
Not to avoid nor to desire nor to cling to the Dark Night. Dark Night becomes a long lasting issue only if one clings to its negativity which happens readily if attached to a goal (ego generated goal).
So even here there is one way to deal with this; effortless awareness of all that is arising withiut clinging to it.

Quote
Strength of practice determines how you negotiate this.
Agreed if by practice you mean detached awake awareness at all times not fooling one self whith what sais who or who wrote what or right vs wrong etc ...

Any way, lets go back to the OP. The theard was started by a fellow begginer meditator dobe and most of you failed to step down from your "achivemnts horse" and join him actualy, since you were where he (and I) are now. You ended talking about your meditation level making me realise only one thing that everything more than mere mindful sitting is just another deluded mind game no matter who said what or what who wrote or who who what  ;)
Ask your selves where was that ACTUAL COMPASSION which would bring you closer to dobe and give the man a helping hand he asked for. You know what ...

Friendly Che

BTW nibs next time you throw at me this Thanissaro "who" be sure I will trhow at you some J.Krishnamurti LoL  ;D lets throw quotes at each other. The Quote Wars LoL

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 10:02:41 AM »

Ask your selves where was that ACTUAL COMPASSION which would bring you closer to dobe and give the man a helping hand he asked for. You know what ...

Friendly???? Che

BTW nibs next time you throw at me this Thanissaro "who" be sure I will trhow at you some J.Krishnamurti LoL  ;D lets throw quotes at each other. The Quote Wars LoL

Hi Che,

 Your tone is leaning towards combative or annoyed at least. I may be reading your posts wrong. On the internet, it happens a lot.  Sorry if you took the Thanissaro quote the wrong way. His opinion is one I accept so it is my opinion too. There are no wars here. You may know better than everyone else, you may not. But it isn't a competition. I'm not competing in any war you talk of.  I'm just giving an opinion and I'm sorry it rubbed you the wrong way. I'll attempt to be more gentle in future. There are better ways to explain our positions. And maybe throwing quotes at people can be taken as annoying. If you feel hurt for anything I posted I apologise.

Lot's of karuna for you!

nibs

:)

« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:05:46 AM by nibs »
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Jeeprs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 10:17:24 AM »
I agree, I don't see the point in arguing about it. In times past, Mahayana and Theravada monks would live in the same monastery and all follow the same rule even though they had different scriptures.  It is a matter of the interpretation of experience and a subtle question.

One way of thinking about it is to meditate on 'who achieves enlightenment?' It is obviously a paradoxical question. Enlightenment is the realization that there is nobody to achieve it. This is the reason why the Buddha is 'Tathagata'.  It is the cessation of the idea of 'the self who achieves' that is required. Of course this is made explicit in the Zen schools, particularly Soto, but they nevertheless put a lot of emphasis on 'right effort'. (In fact at the retreat I went to recently, one of the Thai monks had been at a Zen monastery for a while, and said it was more demanding than the Thai monastery he returned to; they would whack you with a stick if you looked sleepy.)

There really is no resolution of this debate on the verbal level. It is a 'koan', actually the mother of all koans, I would say. So a good subject for meditation and reflection rather than dispute, I would suggest.

Morning Dew

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 11:51:35 AM »
Quote
Your tone is leaning towards combative or annoyed at least

You must be jokeing me mate  ;D look at my user name for gods sake  ;)

Quote
His opinion is one I accept so it is my opinion too

OT;
That is fine by me. Only dont be too shocked if you AWAKEN one day (or even today) and find your head up your own but  ;D now that would be some Dark Night going on it there  :D LoL just jokeing my friend, dont take me too serious, nor should you take this self accepting somebody elses opinions too serious.

Quote
There are no wars here

There is this never ending war of avoiding suffering by achieving enlightenment  :P
I think you should read my books instead of that "who" Bik..hyuh. Just jokeing just jokeing  :)

Quote
I'll attempt to be more gentle in future...If you feel hurt for anything I posted I apologise.

Lot's of karuna for you!

Ok, OK! Here is a penny so you can buy your self a lollipop, good boy  :D
Just joking here dont take me seriously please. I am only shaking up a little this paradoxical thingy we all call enlightenment. I second Jeeprs;

Quote
There really is no resolution of this debate on the verbal level

Friendly Che (no question mark here please)  ;)

nibs

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 12:26:43 PM »
Only dont be too shocked if you AWAKEN one day (or even today) and find your head up your own but  ;D now that would be some Dark Night going on it there  :D LoL just jokeing my friend, dont take me too serious, nor should you take this self accepting somebody elses opinions too serious.

There is this never ending war of avoiding suffering by achieving enlightenment  :P
I think you should read my books instead of that "who" Bik..hyuh. Just jokeing just jokeing  :)

Ok, OK! Here is a penny so you can buy your self a lollipop, good boy  :D
Just joking here dont take me seriously please. I am only shaking up a little this paradoxical thingy we all call enlightenment.


Jokeing and not taking you too seriously aside, what you have written comes across as

con·de·scend·ing  (knd-sndng)
adj.
Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude:

I could be wrong of course.

If anything I have written myself has come across like this, I apologize to anyone who took it that way. If I have a pet peeve, it's condescension on the internet. Please call me on it right away if I have appeared to do just that. I'd rather not.

Peace Che!

nibs
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 12:32:07 PM by nibs »
"Awakening is like taking a satisfying dump." Some anonymous yogi

Matthew

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Re: Forget about Enlightenment... lolwut?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »
nibs,

Please accept my assurance Che is not being condescending - it's his style which is very much to use humour.

You are right in your earlier post that in words on the internet things are often confused - this is not least because 90%+ of communication, even is a face to face dialogue, is non-verbal. All we have here are abstractions of verbal discussion as black and white on a page.

Don't fret, take it easy. The underlying principal of vipassanaforum.net is friendly and supportive communication.

Warmly,

Matthew
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~