female only blog, men not allowed

[Green Tara]

Just kidding, 
though I am interested in the females ideas

Dear female fellow meditators,


Do you think women have the same spiritual potential as men?



There is a lot of contradicting information about what the Buddha said in regard to women practicing Buddhism. Personally I don’t think some of what has been written on this subject in Buddhist writing, measures up to the high standard expected of a Buddha. Most of this ideas were written by men several centuries after the Buddha.
To me the path of Dhamma can be followed by men and women


What matters being a woman
If with mind firmly set
One grows in the knowledge
Of the right law, with insight?
Any one who has to question
Am I a woman or am I a man
And does not oneself really know
Over such a one will Mara triumph

Sanyutta Nikâya



what do you think?

[Matthew]

* The Irreverent Buddhist puts on lipstick and a dress and hopes he'll get away with it

The Buddha accepted women into his Sangha. Some of his disciples didn't want him to. The reason he gave for his decision is that they are as capable of following the path as men.

In the Dhamma,

Gloria

[Green Tara]

Dear Gloria,

Welcome on board
I read somewhere that the Buddha refused to ordain his foster mother Maha Pajapati Gotami. It took him so long to accept her, and only after Ananda approached him. I guess the Buddha is just a man after all. 

[Matthew]

Tara,

Ananda approached him and the Buddha agreed. He said however that as a result of this decision his Dhamma would only last 500 years whereas if the Sangha had remained male only his Dhamma would have lasted 1000 years. I don't think this was misogyny - just a matter of the Karma (consequences) of this decision.

If we take these words literally then all the claims of "unbroken lineage since the time of the Buddha" made by various teachers and schools are worthless as the Dhamma is corrupt.

This might account for the lack of success in gaining enlightenment by following these masters and schools. In response they would say that it takes many lifetimes of practice to come to the point of Buddhahood, however, the evidence from the historical record suggests this is total hogwash. At the death of the Gautama  there were several hundred Arahants or fully enlightened practitioners in his Sangha. Some of them became enlightened in a matter of days of hearing the Buddha's teachings.

This is what has lead me to the conclusion that the path is lost and has to be found again.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[Green Tara]

This might account for the lack of success in gaining enlightenment by following these masters and schools.
This is what has lead me to the conclusion that the path is lost and has to be found again.

So basically we are all screwed without a certain path to follow.
hmmmm, so if it wasn't for women the Dhamma would have lasted longer, on behalf of all women I apologise to you guys.

Does that mean if I left the Sangha the rest of you would have a better chance in walking the path faster 

[Matthew]

Tara

No the opposite. Without your energy we'd be lost and you do not have to appologise for any decision Gautama made 2,500 years ago: He knew exactly what he was doing and why.

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[Paul]

Now I'm confused (again!) so what exactly is a Buddha or an enlightened person?  Some of the people I've read seem to me to be very enlightened, but I'm really not so sure how you'd define someone as enlightened.

[Green Tara]

He said however that as a result of this decision his Dhamma would only last 500 years whereas if the Sangha had remained male only his Dhamma would have lasted 1000 years.

If we take these words literally then this statement may well have come from a time of corrupted teaching and therefore might in itself not be true.

This might account for the lack of success in gaining enlightenment by following these masters and schools.

You have repeated this few times now and I am just wondering how do you know that someone has failed to gain enlightenment?

Tara

[Matthew]

Tara

I judge enlightenment by the standards of Buddha and Christ. World changing figures who shared much in terms of their ministry and teachings. However perverted their followers managed to make their teachings.  I look at this world around us that is such a total friggin wasteland and socially bereft of anything like justice and I say to myself "if there were an enlightened person around they would be making waves". I don't see the waves.

Matthew

[Matthew]

He said however that as a result of this decision his Dhamma would only last 500 years whereas if the Sangha had remained male only his Dhamma would have lasted 1000 years.

If we take these words literally then this statement may well have come from a time of corrupted teaching and therefore might in itself not be true.

There is argument about the meaning/importance of this amongst Buddhists (largely because implicit in this is that they may not be "Buddhists" after all). However the conversations are recorded in the Pali canon:

"The Pali Canon is the standard scripture collection of the Theravada Buddhist tradition, as preserved in the Pali language.[1] The Canon was written down from oral tradition at the occasion of the Fourth Buddhist Council (in the usual Theravada numbering), 1st century BCE, in Sri Lanka[2] on ola (palm) leaves.[3] Passed down in writing and to other Theravadin countries, this originally largely North Indian[4] Canon is the most complete surviving early Buddhist canon and one of the first to be written down.[5]" (Wikipedia)

So this was written down about ~350 years after Gautama died (~400 BCE dates are uncertain). IF what he said is absolutely true then  these words were recorded at a time when the Dhamma was not corrupt.

But who knows? I am best guessing.

In the Dhamma

Matthew

[Green Tara]

I judge enlightenment by the standards of Buddha and Christ. World changing figures who shared much in terms of their ministry and teachings. However perverted their followers managed to make their teachings.  I look at this world around us that is such a total friggin wasteland and socially bereft of anything like justice and I say to myself "if there were an enlightened person around they would be making waves". I don't see the waves.

Christ and Buddha an examples of Enlightened beings. On principle I agree, however I don’t know about the Buddha's but Christ’s world wasn’t exactly a harmonious one was it? His world was such a total frigging wasteland and socially bereft of anything like justice the guy was crucified for heavens sake. And what followed even worse. Look at what happen in Ireland.
I am not really looking forward to an enlightened being who would add another reason for ignorant human to exercise injustice. I prefer the enlightened being who would keep it to themselves.

[mettajoey]

We've had our "enlightened beings", many actually.  What we really need now is an enlightened culture.

[Green Tara]

I second the motion Silentflute.

[Paul]

I don't know what its like where you all live, but around here I get the impression that a lot of people are searching something.  Its like we're in a post-capitalist dream phase, where those who made a lot of money are realising that having all that money hasn't really changed anything, and those who have worked hard only to get absoultely nowhere are realising what a farce it all is.  I know of at least 5 people in our little village alone who have started meditating last year.  And sometimes an American Indian comes to the village to talk about their spirituality and he draws in a crowd of over a hundred people!  All this in the French Riviera, a place where 20, or even 10 years ago no one would have considered meditating or listening to American Indian spirituality instead they were busy working away trying to catch up with the jet-set and their luxury yachts that you see in the ports around here.  To me it seems positive; sure its a tiny microcosm that I see here but when I read the magasines or papers it seems that nationally the same thing is happening (meditating retreats around the country are always fully booked these days according to one article I read.  There's no way that our culture is enlightened and our leaders even less, but it does seem that maybe the seeds of a positive change are being sown.  Is it the same where you all live?

[Flipasso]

I see a sort of spiritual tendency almost everywhere. (Here in Portugal)
But that's probably my way of looking(interpreting) at things. I feel that a lot of people actions are moved because of a strong unconscious desire for spirituallity (happiness).
This is a theory I have, but I believe the reason why alcoholics drink, why maried man go to hookers, why smokers smoke, why people sing and sigh and yell at each other are a manifestation of a huge desire for some sort of happiness that is behind every action. In short our lives are the erratic manifestation of a spiritual desire.
On a more concrete level, I see a lot of old ladies (specially) reading books about spirituality on the subway, but that's it. But the spirituality they seem to adhere to is what I call lame spirituality, Jehova's Whittnesses and a brazilian church called Universal Church of the Kingdom of God which has a program on TV with the most unbelievable "Salvation" stories. These stories are always about economical and familiar issue "salvations". The psychic's and Astrology and stuff get a lot of audience rattings. - Don't mean to offend anyone with this it's just my point of view. - There are a lot of people going to Yoga classes, but the great majority doesn't take it as seriously as the people here in the forum seem to. I know of no Yoga-classmate of mine that meditates at home.
I see some movements towards spirituality but those who get my attention the most are the ones undercover.

[Paul]

Well said Flipasso!  I think you're so right about the manifestations of a desire for happiness that we see in people.  Spot on. About personal perception, yes I often wonder how much of it is just me seeing things because I'm interested in them, no doubt the people who started meditating last year would not have told me that if I didn't meditate myself and therefore the conversation would have always stayed on the weather, cost of living, families etc.  Here there is a lot of the medium/astrology stuff too, there was even a 'Festivale de Voyance' in the Festival Hall at Cannes last week; this is normally host to boat shows and fashion parades!  It just goes to show what big business it has all become. For the Yoga the people left doing it around here in general seem to be interested in the spiritual side these days; those who were there to keep the tummy flat are now doing Pilates instead.  I really agree with you about the undercover spirituality too, those who are the potential seeds or a more enlightened society are probably learning quietly somewhere instead of getting seen in the media and making a lot of noise in general always with a price tag attached.

[Stefan]

Do you think women have the same spiritual potential as men?

You don't really think my lingam gives me extra spiritual power? 

[Green Tara]

I don't think, I know it gives you extra power stefan, not sure about the spiritual though

[Stefan]

  ...

Do you think women have the same spiritual potential as men?

To answer this one in other terms: Women enter the spiritual realms with ease while men have to struggle hard to even do the first step. Men on the other hand are more determined once they entered the spiritul world while women tend to get lost in fairyland ...
These are my words, but I read this in some books (an example: Don Juan Matus explained the structure of a "toltec wizards group" in a similar way), I heard this from some fellow meditators (both female and male and not only Vipassanauts), and - above all - it fits with my experiences and the experiences of close friends.

Somehow your question is similar to this one: "Do you think the south pole has the same magnetic potential as the north pole?"
Do you think the Yin is more YINYANG than the Yang?

Metta, Stefan




(btw,  ... do you Buddhists think that Metta is more Love than Bhakti? ... aaah that's a good one!)

[Green Tara]

Isn't interesting that, there is hardly any story (and I say hardly because I haven't read everything) in the Buddhist tradition about a nun who was seduced by a tall dark and handsome guy. Or a demon appears to an awakened woman in the form of Brad Pitt. I wonder is that because, demons don't bother with women, because there is noway they can enter Nirvana,
so they don't waste energy diverting them, or because when women concentrate on their path they don't drop by and visit the fairyland where temptation reside 
tara

Do you think women have the same spiritual potential as men?

"Do you think the south pole has the same magnetic potential as the north pole?"

 

Do you think the Yin is more YINYANG than the Yang?

not related, we both have both.

[Stefan]

Do you think the Yin is more YINYANG than the Yang?

not related, we both have both.

Yeah that's exactly what I was trying to point out!   (It is related ...)

Metta, Stefan

[Stefan]

Isn't interesting that, there is hardly any story (and I say hardly because I haven't read everything) in the Buddhist tradition about a nun who was seduced by a tall dark and handsome guy. Or a demon appears to an awakened woman in the form of Brad Pitt.

Maybe they didn't tell anyone ...? 

Women have their own demons - catching men may be easier for the average demon because in male biology sexuality is more dominant - hence the stories about sukkubi ect.        Noooo ... for the women they invented the telephone, hehehehehe (...kidding)

Metta, Stefan

(PS.: If you wake up in the middle of the night and there's Brad Pitt standing inside your room, then tell him a nice haircut doesn't make a man. Tell him that.)

[Green Tara]

(PS.: If you wake up in the middle of the night and there's Brad Pitt standing inside your room, then tell him a nice haircut doesn't make a man. Tell him that.)

Sorry Stefan, you have to tell him that yourself, you are not talking to an enlightened woman, if I woke up in the middle of the night and Brad Pitt was standing in my room, I think I will just thank the Demons.

[Stefan]

 

[ivana]

Dear girls
I would like recommend a book Committed by Elizabeth Gilbert . I am not sure about boys but girls should read it compulsory at school. It is a sequel to Eat Pray Love. I think there is a lot of answers to previous questions.
Have a nice reading
Ivana