Meditation Discussion Forum

Vipassana Meditation Forum => Meditation, Practice And The Path => Topic started by: RusskiPower on October 30, 2008, 08:42:40 PM

Title: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: RusskiPower on October 30, 2008, 08:42:40 PM
When I was just back from my first Vipassana camp sometime last century, I met that old Taiwanese gentleman. I told him I was practising Vipassana. "Ah, Nei-guan! Watch out, it reduces your sex drive!" he quipped. Well, who the heck are you to tell me that, I could have said. But this particular gentleman of 76 was still actively engaging with his lovely wife of 72, so he knew a thing or two about the topic. He was a martial arts practitioner (still is) and that probably was the reason of his surprising prowess.

Last few months I have been diligent in daily meditation like never before. And somehow I have started noticing that while I am getting so much more balanced, focused and wise (yeah right! ;D) I have also become cooler and calmer when it comes to sex. I'm 35, healthy, a dedicated gymfit swimmer on a very balanced diet, not  stressed in the least and very happy about my life.  Physically there is nothing wrong with me but I can definitely see that my mojo is kind of shrinking.

Anybody else been through this before?  :-\
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Samsara Addict on October 30, 2008, 10:37:50 PM
Been there Russki Power, as have many others. I remember reading a tongue in cheek article in a Vipassana magazine a few years ago about this. It was written by the female partners of meditators. They were complaining that the passion had gone out of their relationships. I don't have an explanation or a solution for it but I can sympathise.

Onward and upward (maybe a bad choice of words!)

Del

Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: RusskiPower on October 30, 2008, 10:58:26 PM
So, del, is it just a phase? Just a sankara that needs to be meditated out?  :)
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Samsara Addict on October 30, 2008, 11:19:20 PM
I guess it might be. My practice has never been consistent enough to find out. I've also had the opposite problem, while on retreat all I could think about was sex. If it ain't one thing its another. I wonder if the others might be able to shed some light on this?
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Matthew on October 31, 2008, 09:08:00 AM
As you reduce the habitual ways of thinking about yourself, the world and other objects in it (including people) through meditation there are many side effects.

You are engaged in a practice of reducing habit and attachment. Sex has a lot to do with both. Our thoughts about sex have a lot to do with both.  It is no surprise that your sex drive may diminish but what is also likely is that when you have sex, you are more present, more aware of yourself and the other, more compassionate and more deeply engaged with the act.

Less sex but better sex? Now that can't be too much of a loss eh? ;)

In the Dhamma,

Matthew
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: one.love on December 03, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
After reading this i sort of smiled in an ironic sort of way. I am hoping to use meditation as a manner to reduce my sex drive to focus on my life and the direction i want to channel my energy. I am in no way un-satisfied i just feel i would benefit alot more from an addition to concentration from lack of sexual diversions.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: greenhorn on December 11, 2008, 03:21:44 AM
Sri Ravi Shankar says that sex turns your partner into an OBJECT, the object of your pleasure. Something to think about. I used to believe that as long as you have sex in a faithful and loving relationship sex would be 'making love'. Here I am, though, one year and a half of being married reaching the conclusion that sex is sex afterall, and am more and more inclined to agree with R Shankar.

Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: anicca on December 11, 2008, 06:13:14 AM
As you reduce the habitual ways of thinking about yourself, the world and other objects in it (including people) through meditation there are many side effects.

You are engaged in a practice of reducing habit and attachment. Sex has a lot to do with both. Our thoughts about sex have a lot to do with both.  It is no surprise that your sex drive may diminish but what is also likely is that when you have sex, you are more present, more aware of yourself and the other, more compassionate and more deeply engaged with the act.

Less sex but better sex? Now that can't be too much of a loss eh? ;)

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

I agree with the sentiment of your post wholeheartedly. My partner and I have both been practising Vipassana for many years and have both done a number of retreats (both together and apart). We have a loving, intimate relationship that is very sexually fulfilling because its not based on craving and addiction.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: nostroaccount on December 25, 2008, 07:45:36 PM
I think I am quite satisfied that my sexual drive is going down..
But once in a while it does go high....old sankharas...
Hope i can kill all someday!!

Guys....your are nearly half way thru the day you make your sexual passion ZERO....

That I am sure is a blissful state!!
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: kamika on January 05, 2009, 10:12:02 PM
Now i have a little question about this.

i have no problem with the no masturbation for 10 days.

but after it's over, i feel like there is too much of a build of in my prostate, So i have to relieve all the build up or else i feel like it won't be too healthy.

isn't that how cancer develops? they've done scientific research that say that men who masturbate more frequently have a much lower chance of getting prostate cancer.

I'm pretty sure i could keep a balanced view of the whole thing.

Now lets say you find yourself in a situation, where a girl who you're really attracted to wants to have sex with you, and you have a condom, and you're like...

(okay, if i have sex with this girl, she's just going to build up an attachment, and if i say no, she'll be really upset.)

So do i just explain to her? Okay, but just to let you know, I'm traveling all the time, and i don't want you to build too much of an attachment to what we do tonight.

that's why i wish i had a girlfriend who was a good vipassana meditator.

I'm a virgin any way.

I've always thought of sex as a health issue, a natural bodily function.

However, if i become enlightened, all i wont have enough time for sex, and i the desire to have sex wont come up, therefor i wont have a build up of semen in my prostate. I'm guessing.

either way, I'm looking forward to fine future.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: frepi on January 05, 2009, 10:18:48 PM
Sexual drive is a naked girl driving a Ferrari...
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Matthew on January 06, 2009, 03:12:11 AM
either way, I'm looking forward to fine future.

That is a good way of making sure you are not present now !
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: greenhorn on January 06, 2009, 08:05:17 PM
but after it's over, i feel like there is too much of a build of in my prostate, So i have to relieve all the build up or else i feel like it won't be too healthy.

 
Dear Kamika,

  According to Ayurveda (the ancient Indian medicine), it takes 40 days for the body to build the reproductive tissue. In addition, the sperm or the fluid released by the Bartholin's glands in women during sex, is the core of the immune system. Reckless, random sex, or even masturbation can totally deplete your immune system. I would say wait till you meet a partner, and even then, make sure you don;t overdo it. If for nothing else than health issues. Besides, sex within two loving partners is much more fulfilling and meaningful than masturbation. :)

Monica
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: mattkingnz on January 09, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
sounds like you are becomming more high tone..you wont lose the `drive`..the drive will move into something more creative...thats a great state to be in ..ur on the way up.. imagine if that drive went into your focus while meditating...wooh ... god knows what might happen!! :D
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on April 19, 2013, 09:11:53 AM
Hi all, I realise this is an old thread, but I'm curious about this - do those of you who have maintained a regular, long-term meditation practice experience a drop in sex drive? (I'm directing this question mainly to males, as it seems most females don't seem to have such maddeningly strong urges.) I've been kind of hoping I'd eventually lose interest in sex, or maybe sublimate the energy into other things, but no sign of that yet! Any tips? I'm celibate these days and have no more interest in relationships or one-night stands, and could really do without intrusive thoughts of hot chicks while I'm trying to meditate. :) I've never gone for more than 10 days (retreats) without some sort of, ahem, sexual activity, and I've found the longer I abstain, the stronger the urge gets. Does the libido eventually subside when you cease all sexual activity for long enough?
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Renze on April 19, 2013, 10:14:49 AM
Hi DarkNightOfNoSoul,

I'm currently in a 90-day 'NoFap'-challenge, I'm at day 15. There is some (pseudo)science behind this that after 90-days your brain will have reset from porn/masturbation 'addiction'. I currently feel very strong sexual urges, so I'm kinda skeptical about it. I hope to complete the challenge and tell you about my experiences. The website that inspired me to try this is www.yourbrainonporn.com (http://www.yourbrainonporn.com) It's all pseudoscience IMO, but I somehow felt triggered to experience it for myself.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: redalert on April 19, 2013, 11:21:17 AM
I've read that lust is one of the final fetters to fall away, after the stage of non-returner. Try marriage or kids to eliminate sex drive. :D
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: siddharthgode on April 19, 2013, 03:56:58 PM
Hi all, I realise this is an old thread, but I'm curious about this - do those of you who have maintained a regular, long-term meditation practice experience a drop in sex drive? (I'm directing this question mainly to males, as it seems most females don't seem to have such maddeningly strong urges.)

NO. if i have to compare the present with past then i dont see any decrease in urges all thought they are much under control, the urge itself might have increased with age. I inquired with assistant teacher in a course and he said they are the deep rooted and are very difficult to remove for a very very advanced mediator.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Stefan on April 20, 2013, 03:33:51 PM

Men! Don't be afraid to have less sex. It doesn't mean that you are no men anymore.


You are engaged in a practice of reducing habit and attachment. Sex has a lot to do with both. Our thoughts about sex have a lot to do with both.  It is no surprise that your sex drive may diminish but what is also likely is that when you have sex, you are more present, more aware of yourself and the other, more compassionate and more deeply engaged with the act.

Less sex but better sex? Now that can't be too much of a loss eh? ;)


*sign*

one of the main craving-aversion-topics in human life is sex. So, changes in your craving-aversion-patterns will naturally affect your sexlife. Compulsive patterns fade and therefore the manic need of the ego to have sex all the time.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Stefan on April 20, 2013, 03:40:13 PM
Hi all, I realise this is an old thread, but I'm curious about this - do those of you who have maintained a regular, long-term meditation practice experience a drop in sex drive? (I'm directing this question mainly to males, as it seems most females don't seem to have such maddeningly strong urges.) I've been kind of hoping I'd eventually lose interest in sex, or maybe sublimate the energy into other things, but no sign of that yet! Any tips? I'm celibate these days and have no more interest in relationships or one-night stands, and could really do without intrusive thoughts of hot chicks while I'm trying to meditate. :) I've never gone for more than 10 days (retreats) without some sort of, ahem, sexual activity, and I've found the longer I abstain, the stronger the urge gets. Does the libido eventually subside when you cease all sexual activity for long enough?

... better not crave for not craving for sex ...

(actually this was going to be a long answer, but after reading it through only this sentence survived)
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on April 22, 2013, 09:26:35 PM
Hi DarkNightOfNoSoul,

I'm currently in a 90-day 'NoFap'-challenge, I'm at day 15. There is some (pseudo)science behind this that after 90-days your brain will have reset from porn/masturbation 'addiction'. I currently feel very strong sexual urges, so I'm kinda skeptical about it. I hope to complete the challenge and tell you about my experiences. The website that inspired me to try this is www.yourbrainonporn.com (http://www.yourbrainonporn.com) It's all pseudoscience IMO, but I somehow felt triggered to experience it for myself.
Brilliant! 90 days, phew. Maybe the drive will peak at some point then start to drop off. Surely it would have to, or you'd just explode. :o For me, after abstaining for a week or so, the urges start to manifest in dreams. Argh.

I'll have a good look at that website when I have a chance - on the surface I agree with what they say about sensitisation of reward pathways.

Do keep us updated on your reboot!
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on April 22, 2013, 09:33:42 PM
I've read that lust is one of the final fetters to fall away, after the stage of non-returner. Try marriage or kids to eliminate sex drive. :D
:D I did find that long-term relationships seemed to help - but the lust didn't go away, it was just redirected to other females!

NO. if i have to compare the present with past then i dont see any decrease in urges all thought they are much under control, the urge itself might have increased with age. I inquired with assistant teacher in a course and he said they are the deep rooted and are very difficult to remove for a very very advanced mediator.
Damn! Yes I seem to remember hearing some story about the Buddha on the night of his enlightenment, finally finding the strength to resist all the temptresses Mara sent his way.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on April 22, 2013, 09:38:18 PM
... better not crave for not craving for sex ...

(actually this was going to be a long answer, but after reading it through only this sentence survived)
Ugh, good point. And now we also must be careful that we don't crave for not craving for not craving for sex. :)
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Stefan on April 24, 2013, 05:43:35 PM


And now we also must be careful that we don't crave for not craving for not craving for sex. :)


exactly. there's no end to it ...

that's the thing about this kind of meditation ...  ;) you don't "kind of hope it ceases", but you observe it calmly. Observe the urge, and if you can't resist, then observe the joy, go with the flow and observe. Because you cannot hope it away. On the contrary. The hope/ wish/ craving is binding you to the habit of creating "hot chicks" in your mind. It doesn't matter wether you hope for hot chicks or wether you hope for the hot chicks to cease. If you want to get rid of a coin, you have to get rid of both sides ...

Sexuality is part of your body. It will not cease, neither will your arm cease.  Observe your arm, observe your sex, calmly, equanimously, go with the breath ect pp

 :angel:
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: dimeo on July 12, 2013, 05:45:34 PM
I have also become cooler and calmer when it comes to sex.

That's not a bad thing!  Stamina and the ability to be patient can be good for sex.  Calmness and giving are important aspects of loving kindness.
We're somehow taught this idea that orgasm is the end all be all focus in sex.  The topic of "Tantric sex" discusses this further although likely much of the info posted online is not necessarily authentic & traditional teachings?  Mantak Chia has published a few books based on Chinese Chi Kung meditations related to sexual energies.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on September 11, 2013, 09:29:00 PM
Hi DarkNightOfNoSoul,

I'm currently in a 90-day 'NoFap'-challenge, I'm at day 15. There is some (pseudo)science behind this that after 90-days your brain will have reset from porn/masturbation 'addiction'. I currently feel very strong sexual urges, so I'm kinda skeptical about it. I hope to complete the challenge and tell you about my experiences. The website that inspired me to try this is www.yourbrainonporn.com (http://www.yourbrainonporn.com) It's all pseudoscience IMO, but I somehow felt triggered to experience it for myself.
I'd like to "resurrect" this old thread once more - mainly because I'm currently trying the NoFap challenge (Day 69) myself. I've basically found the same thing as Renze - no real reduction in sex drive overall (in fact, quite an increase), aside from the occasional "flatline" period when I can manage to keep my attention away from anything sexual for a few days. The difficulties I'm experiencing make me despair that I could ever take the vows of a monk.

When I was at Wat Pah Nanachat there was a story on the wall about Ajahn Chah and how as a young monk he went through several weeks of intense sexual desire and had to walk around the monastery with a cloth tied around his waist to hide his erection. :D But with considerable effort and determination he eventually overcame desire.

Renze, are you still around? How did you fare in the end? Anyone else tried NF?
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Matthew on September 12, 2013, 04:14:49 AM
13 years celibate and counting. Sexual drive doesn't disappear entirely - it's your identification/attachment to it that will determine the level of success you find.

Kindly,

Matthew
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 12, 2013, 09:01:31 AM
Been there Russki Power, as have many others. I remember reading a tongue in cheek article in a Vipassana magazine a few years ago about this. It was written by the female partners of meditators. They were complaining that the passion had gone out of their relationships. I don't have an explanation or a solution for it but I can sympathise.

Onward and upward (maybe a bad choice of words!)

Del

I don't know about other teAchers, but Mr Goenka says the goal of vipassana is to root out alltraces of passion as one's own deepest (imaginary) enemy.

Of course following such advice from a complete stranger (as Mr Goenka certainly is) will wreak havoc on the psyche as well as the relationship.

Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on September 12, 2013, 09:52:11 PM
I don't know about other teAchers, but Mr Goenka says the goal of vipassana is to root out alltraces of passion as one's own deepest (imaginary) enemy.

Of course following such advice from a complete stranger (as Mr Goenka certainly is) will wreak havoc on the psyche as well as the relationship.
Hi Dan, just looking at your other posts in this forum, you seem rather fixated on Mr Goenka. However, many of your criticisms seem to apply to Buddhism in general rather than specifically to Goenka's presentation of Buddhism. Bear in mind that nothing in Goenka's courses is particularly new; he's just continuing the tradition of past meditation teachers (notably Sayagyi U Ba Khin). He has simply tried to summarise it and make it more palatable to a western audience. Whether he has done a good job of this is debatable, and many would agree that Goenka's particular approach is not ideal. But there are other approaches.

Regarding your comment above, as I understand it, one of the main goals of serious practitioners (e.g., Buddhist monks) is to overcome all sensual pleasures, and passion/lust is one of the strongest. Letting go of cravings is thought ultimately to lead to a lasting peace and happiness that is superior to that obtained by spending one's life chasing short-term pleasures. However, lay Buddhist practitioners are by no means prohibited from having sexual relationships.

Your comments concern me a little because it sounds like you've missed the core point of Buddhism by not comprehending how craving for sensual pleasures is at the very heart of suffering. If you give the subject any deep consideration, it's really quite obvious and logical!

And this view is not limited to Buddhism; the ancient Greeks (and Romans) independently developed a comprehensive philosophy of living called Stoicism that is extremely close to Buddhist philosophy (though their "meditation" could more accurately be called "contemplation"). Perhaps you'd be more interested in studying Stoicism than Buddhism (an excellent modern introduction is "A guide to the good life: The ancient art of Stoic joy" by William Irvine). Though I guess you might argue that there's no evidence that Zeno, Seneca, Epictetus etc even existed.  ;)

I'm sorry that you're so angry and bitter about Buddhism - but if you don't understand or like the philosophy and the meditation techniques on offer, then why don't you simply leave it all behind and move on with your life, rather than working hard to convince everyone that your view is right? Honestly, it's probably a waste of your time and energy, because those who have established a regular meditation practice and started experiencing the benefits for themselves are extremely unlikely to be swayed.

All the best.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: redalert on September 13, 2013, 02:33:08 AM
I'm sorry that you're so angry and bitter about Buddhism

Very well written DNONS,

Entropic is not angry with Buddhism, or Mr. Goenka, or the technique.

Entropic, you worked appropriately at the course, and the result is this defilement has arisen in you and you have the opportunity to observe it as you were taught. You cannot change the reality of this moment as it presents itself, you can only look at it and accept it.

You cannot change the past, it's gone, accept and move beyond. I understand that this is a big storm you are going through, it will pass. The question is do you wish to bury this under some more blankets or are you done with that game?

Desire presents itself from moment to moment in its unique way, some times its the urge to tug on your willy, if you fail to get a grip on a sexual desire you may end up gripping something else. If this happens so be it, just let it go, accept that at this moment I lost the balance of my mind and start again there is always another moment to practice.

We are meant to naturally come out of desire, we can work at our own pace, sexual desire is just one desire to observe.

Goenka's courses are TUFF! They are designed to bring about suffering, for you to observe as you learned. They are designed for one to be successful, but they are TUFF!

I feel for you, and wish you every success.
Much metta,
Red

Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 13, 2013, 04:31:07 AM
I don't know about other teAchers, but Mr Goenka says the goal of vipassana is to root out alltraces of passion as one's own deepest (imaginary) enemy.

Of course following such advice from a complete stranger (as Mr Goenka certainly is) will wreak havoc on the psyche as well as the relationship.
Hi Dan, just looking at your other posts in this forum, you seem rather fixated on Mr Goenka. However, many of your criticisms seem to apply to Buddhism in general rather than specifically to Goenka's presentation of Buddhism. Bear in mind that nothing in Goenka's courses is particularly new; he's just continuing the tradition of past meditation teachers (notably Sayagyi U Ba Khin). He has simply tried to summarise it and make it more palatable to a western audience. Whether he has done a good job of this is debatable, and many would agree that Goenka's particular approach is not ideal. But there are other approaches.

Regarding your comment above, as I understand it, one of the main goals of serious practitioners (e.g., Buddhist monks) is to overcome all sensual pleasures, and passion/lust is one of the strongest. Letting go of cravings is thought ultimately to lead to a lasting peace and happiness that is superior to that obtained by spending one's life chasing short-term pleasures. However, lay Buddhist practitioners are by no means prohibited from having sexual relationships.

Your comments concern me a little because it sounds like you've missed the core point of Buddhism by not comprehending how craving for sensual pleasures is at the very heart of suffering. If you give the subject any deep consideration, it's really quite obvious and logical!

And this view is not limited to Buddhism; the ancient Greeks (and Romans) independently developed a comprehensive philosophy of living called Stoicism that is extremely close to Buddhist philosophy (though their "meditation" could more accurately be called "contemplation"). Perhaps you'd be more interested in studying Stoicism than Buddhism (an excellent modern introduction is "A guide to the good life: The ancient art of Stoic joy" by William Irvine). Though I guess you might argue that there's no evidence that Zeno, Seneca, Epictetus etc even existed.  ;)

I'm sorry that you're so angry and bitter about Buddhism - but if you don't understand or like the philosophy and the meditation techniques on offer, then why don't you simply leave it all behind and move on with your life, rather than working hard to convince everyone that your view is right? Honestly, it's probably a waste of your time and energy, because those who have established a regular meditation practice and started experiencing the benefits for themselves are extremely unlikely to be swayed.

All the best.

Hi Dark night

Actually there's plenty of evidence of the existence of Seneca, and I believe Zeno too, though none for Jesus (see the bible geek robertmprice.mindvendor.com), andnonethat I could find for Buddha. Sexuality is how we got here, though no religion will admit this, claiming other reasons
Like rebirth, creation by God, sank harass,reincarnation etcetera. It is certainly not a defilement. If somebody chooses to live celibate that's all fine. The problem I see is if people espouse and teach this view as an expression of hatred or disdain for the body.

That has been why for instance the Skoptsy sect continued the ancient tradition of renouncing sexual pleasure and castrated themselves for e sake of the kingdom of heaven as per Matthew 19:12. Eunuch ism for worldly and spiritual reasons was much more widespread in the ancient world of India and the mediterranean at the time these traditions were begun. An honest appraisal of where these traditions have either come from or been helps one to know whether there is any value in them.

of course the earth does have an overpopulation problem but contraception will do just as we'll as abstention.

I just think that people need to make up their own minds about such things.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 13, 2013, 04:41:18 AM
I'm sorry that you're so angry and bitter about Buddhism

Very well written DNONS,

Entropic is not angry with Buddhism, or Mr. Goenka, or the technique.

Entropic, you worked appropriately at the course, and the result is this defilement has arisen in you and you have the opportunity to observe it as you were taught. You cannot change the reality of this moment as it presents itself, you can only look at it and accept it.

You cannot change the past, it's gone, accept and move beyond. I understand that this is a big storm you are going through, it will pass. The question is do you wish to bury this under some more blankets or are you done with that game?

Desire presents itself from moment to moment in its unique way, some times its the urge to tug on your willy, if you fail to get a grip on a sexual desire you may end up gripping something else. If this happens so be it, just let it go, accept that at this moment I lost the balance of my mind and start again there is always another moment to practice.

We are meant to naturally come out of desire, we can work at our own pace, sexual desire is just one desire to observe.

Goenka's courses are TUFF! They are designed to bring about suffering, for you to observe as you learned. They are designed for one to be successful, but they are TUFF!

I feel for you, and wish you every success.
Much metta,
Red

Oh Red please don't take it badly but i really had to laugh reading your post. Sorry but it all sounds so ... Meant to be, as if it is a real science, so much like the textbook advice of a vipassana course, and the reassurance between students ata meditation centre.

Mr Goenka says at one stage, there is really no mother, no father. As if each is an island. All are now his dear dharma sons and dharma daughters (sexlessly of course), and all are dharma sisters and dharma brothers, and even if married, having a goal of celibacy.

There we have the typical pseudo sexless family.

It all sounds pretty weird to me. Much better in my view not to listen to strangers on videotapes telling one what to do feel and think.

Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Matthew on September 13, 2013, 06:31:07 AM
Dan,

Know the etymological root, real meaning of, the word passion? - comes from Latin from the verb passare: 'to suffer', same root as patient, in the medical sense, one who suffers. Also - and I know you might not like this - the passion of Christ, i.e. the SUFFERING of Christ (never got that before getting into etymology).


Etymology is cool, can help cut to the nub of things.

It all sounds pretty weird to me. Much better in my view not to listen to strangers on videotapes telling one what to do feel and think.

Would agree with you to a large extent there. Get to know someone first so you know if they walk the walk or just talk the talk, and what kind of walk and talk they're rolling with ..

My choice to be celebrate was made because I'd had my fair share of fun, wanted to spend the energy in other directions and want the next woman I sleep with to be the mother of my kids, if she exists.

Cheers,

Matthew

Have a good day bro,

Matthew
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 13, 2013, 01:29:24 PM
Dan,

Know the etymological root, real meaning of, the word passion? - comes from Latin from the verb passare: 'to suffer', same root as patient, in the medical sense, one who suffers. Also - and I know you might not like this - the passion of Christ, i.e. the SUFFERING of Christ (never got that before getting into etymology).


Etymology is cool, can help cut to the nub of things.

It all sounds pretty weird to me. Much better in my view not to listen to strangers on videotapes telling one what to do feel and think.

Would agree with you to a large extent there. Get to know someone first so you know if they walk the walk or just talk the talk, and what kind of walk and talk they're rolling with ..

My choice to be celebrate was made because I'd had my fair share of fun, wanted to spend the energy in other directions and want the next woman I sleep with to be the mother of my kids, if she exists.

Cheers,

Matthew

Have a good day bro,

Matthew
Good for you. A little self discipline goes a long way and no doubt exudes confidence.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: redalert on September 13, 2013, 01:40:47 PM
Oh Red please don't take it badly but i really had to laugh reading your post.
There might have been some humour there for your benefit.  ::)


Sorry but it all sounds so ... Meant to be, as if it is a real science, so much like the textbook advice of a vipassana course, and the reassurance between students ata meditation centre.

Bottom line is your Goenka course ripped away your protective blanket, and you looked at the festering wound that is Entropic. Don't take this badly we all have festering wounds and it is extremely difficult to look at them and accept them.

The current road you are on, you will spend some time running around spouting off hatred towards this technique. Covering the wound with layers of negativity taking you further, and further from your true nature. This is no escape, eventually you must look at this wound.

I see your suffering, and I want to help you to progress in a direction towards the truth. My abilities are very limited, I can only share with you my experience in this tradition.
Mr Goenka says at one stage, there is really no mother, no father. As if each is an island. All are now his dear dharma sons and dharma daughters (sexlessly of course), and all are dharma sisters and dharma brothers, and even if married, having a goal of celibacy.

For the duration of the course you are asked to observe complete celibacy, but you are not expected to continue this after the course. As you naturally progress on the path your sexual desire will diminish, your idea of relationships will mature, you will not have the desire to conquer or use women. You will begin to look at people and see their sufferings, and you will want to help them come out of their suffering. Like a father or mother cares for a child. I believe this is what Goenka means when calling his students his sons and daughters, he sees our suffering as he has progressed a long way down the path. He is an elder, he has acquired much wisdom(this has nothing to do with clock time).

It all sounds pretty weird to me. Much better in my view not to listen to strangers on videotapes telling one what to do feel and think.

I personally like the video tapes, you are less likely to make Goenka into a guru by receiving the teachings through this media. I've witnessed people throw themselves in front of some monks and nuns, worshiping and praising them(can be dangerous behaviour in my opinion). I could only imagine people in the presence of Mr. Goenka, bowing and mindlessly chanting sadhu, sadhu, sadhu(more dangerous behaviour). He is constantly telling people not to make him into a guru. He, and his tapes are pointers, your guide is within you.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Matthew on September 13, 2013, 09:43:49 PM
Dan,

Know the etymological root, real meaning of, the word passion? - comes from Latin from the verb passare: 'to suffer', same root as patient, in the medical sense, one who suffers. Also - and I know you might not like this - the passion of Christ, i.e. the SUFFERING of Christ (never got that before getting into etymology).


Etymology is cool, can help cut to the nub of things.

It all sounds pretty weird to me. Much better in my view not to listen to strangers on videotapes telling one what to do feel and think.

Would agree with you to a large extent there. Get to know someone first so you know if they walk the walk or just talk the talk, and what kind of walk and talk they're rolling with ..

My choice to be celebrate was made because I'd had my fair share of fun, wanted to spend the energy in other directions and want the next woman I sleep with to be the mother of my kids, if she exists.

Cheers,

Matthew

Have a good day bro,

Matthew
Good for you. A little self discipline goes a long way and no doubt exudes confidence.

There is no point quoting the whole of a post directly without separating it to address issues therein.

To do otherwise is a form of spamming the forum. 'Cut, cut, cut', as Shibata Sensei taught regarding ego.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 13, 2013, 10:50:16 PM
Red,

The course with Mr Goenka aims at a total transformation of the psyche over a lifetime of commitment to the technique taught by him. That's a very big commitment for anybody to make.
Mr Goenka does not teach the 'one and only way', because there is no 'one and only way'.

If It suits you to continue your practice in the Mr Goenka tradition that's fine. I certainly have concerns about the way it is aug, the complete surrender asked of people, including children on his childrens's course. Also the way he speaks of things of which he can have no possible knowledge or experience, such as what happens before conception or after death in the version of the Buddhist schematic he uses.

Additionally, why should his centres have the advantage of being recognised as an educational institution at least in Australia with tax deductability for donations to the building fund. This lends an aura of truth to his untrue teachings, including those about what happens after death.

If people want to practise this technique and even have their children surrender to Mr Goenka, they should not rely on taxpayer subsidies.

Ps red there are ill-effects from or after vipassana with Mr Goenka including suicides, psychotic episodes. I knew a meditator who did suicide.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: redalert on September 14, 2013, 12:08:59 AM
When the security blanket gets removed, it can be quite painful. For some with serious psychiatric conditions this method is not compatible. From my experience the administration takes the application process very seriously, but often people falsify their applications hoping for a cure to their condition. This as you noted can be catastrophic. This is a serious undertaking and is not to be taken lightly. People are warned on several occasions before the course begins.

You can only surrender to this method to the level you are comfortable with. Many experience states they are unfamiliar with, and if they are secretly chanting or counting rosaries or doing yoga or other practices, they may get confused as to how these states manifested or what they mean. The tradition wishes one to experience this technique in its purity, this is what they are asking you to surrender to.

Nobody in this tradition expects you to swallow the words of Goenka as true without experiencing them and verifying them for yourself. As one traverses this path and experiences the different stations, they are more likely to have faith that this is the truth and these are things to come. But still you do not have to believe them, this is not wisdom.

This teaching must be offered freely to any and all regarding their financial status, it very much is a charity.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Mpgkona on September 14, 2013, 12:25:05 AM
No one surrenders to Goenka. He asks one to surrender to the Buddhas teachings, to the Dhamma. He asks this so that one gives full and complete effort. Also, regardless of Goenkas views on birth, death, and rebirth, one does not have to believe this stuff in order to practice his technique. Quite the opposite actually.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Dharmic Tui on September 14, 2013, 01:14:06 AM
If people want to practise this technique and even have their children surrender to Mr Goenka, they should not rely on taxpayer subsidies.
Haha, the old religion-taxation argument from the Atheist handbook. Don't be trying to scrutinise any of your mantras, it could rock your world.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 14, 2013, 04:27:31 AM
When the security blanket gets removed, it can be quite painful. For some with serious psychiatric conditions this method is not compatible. From my experience the administration takes the application process very seriously, but often people falsify their applications hoping for a cure to their condition. This as you noted can be catastrophic. This is a serious undertaking and is not to be taken lightly. People are warned on several occasions before the course begins.

Mr Goenka says the technique to be dhamma must be universal, beneficial for one and all. If it is not universal, then is it dhamma by his own definition?

Another yardstick he mentions, it must harm nobody. Somebody commits suicide after a course, it's all very well to blame the person and say it must have been their own sankharas, but that's just an ad hominem defence.

You can only surrender to this method to the level you are comfortable with. Many experience states they are unfamiliar with, and if they are secretly chanting or counting rosaries or doing yoga or other practices, they may get confused as to how these states manifested or what they mean. The tradition wishes one to experience this technique in its purity, this is what they are asking you to surrender to.

 Not doing yoga? why not? What states do you mean? perhaps when Mr Goenka  starts getting all excited and telling people to start from the back and come out of the front, start from the left and come out of the right, and etcetera. This goes beyond his former advice to always stay within the framework of the body. Similarly on day one when he asks the students to observe respiration outside of the nostrils, below the nostrils above the upper lip, this is outside of the body. If it is not the touch of the respiration, then it is not respiration at all, he has asked the students to go outside of their bodies. It is not surprising that some students get confused when the technique is taught in such a confusing, contradictory, nonsensical way.

Nobody in this tradition expects you to swallow the words of Goenka as true without experiencing them and verifying them for yourself. As one traverses this path and experiences the different stations, they are more likely to have faith that this is the truth and these are things to come. But still you do not have to believe them, this is not wisdom.

But they do. To start with they accept his advice that their mind is just a pus filled wound and that all their current actions are not really their own but they are just puppets of this very same pus, sankharas, sleeping volcanoes from previous lives, etcetera. His teaching starts with the presumption that the human being is impure, that there are invisible impurities inside, and that these impurities can be eradicated by the practice of vipassana as taught by him. That's a lot of swallowing of assumptions that the students take as they silently listen to his instructions, all day, every day, for 10 days per course.

This teaching must be offered freely to any and all regarding their financial status, it very much is a charity.

It doesn't have tax deductability as a charity, but as an educational institution. Mr Goenka claims to have a degree in explaining the 32 different tracks to different planes of existence through which one can enter at the moment of death. Where he obtained this doctorate I don't know. But the taxpayer shouldn't be subsidising such chutzpah. (that's what he does on the long course, btw).

Ps In relation to your earlier post when you suggested my criticisms are just the result of some deep wound in my mind exposed by the successful practice of vipassana as taught by Mr Goenka.

You said
Bottom line is your Goenka course ripped away your protective blanket, and you looked at the festering wound that is Entropic. Don't take this badly we all have festering wounds and it is extremely difficult to look at them and accept them.

The current road you are on, you will spend some time running around spouting off hatred towards this technique. Covering the wound with layers of negativity taking you further, and further from your true nature. This is no escape, eventually you must look at this wound.

I see your suffering, and I want to help you to progress in a direction towards the truth. My abilities are very limited, I can only share with you my experience in this tradition.

Now either you are suggesting that I am a festering wound, or that any criticisms of Mr Goenka's teachings, however true they might be, are a festering wound. That's really just an ad hominem argument and flows in my opinion directly from the practice of Vipassana as taught by Mr Goenka. Mr Goenka is an artful master in ad hominem, instructing the students that they are all controlled by festering wounds of past impurities from past lives, which have to be eradicated in order to attain nibbana - where nothing arises and nothing passes away (death imho), and that by the practice of this technique such impurities can be eradicated. The disagreeable fact that some people are going to get confused by all this, especially by trying to put it into practice, and may become psychotic, have a nervous breakdown, or commit suicide, is simply put down to that persons bad sankharas, ultimately bad kamma.


Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 14, 2013, 04:33:13 AM
No one surrenders to Goenka. He asks one to surrender to the Buddhas teachings, to the Dhamma. He asks this so that one gives full and complete effort. Also, regardless of Goenkas views on birth, death, and rebirth, one does not have to believe this stuff in order to practice his technique. Quite the opposite actually.

If you did a vipassana course with Mr Goenka, then you repeated after him "I surrender myself completely to Buddha, and my present teacher, for proper guidance and protection".

If you did a long course, then you would say "I surrender my ego centred self completely to Buddha and my present teacher, for proper guidance and protection".

Mr Goenka takes advantage of his special position in the course, which is of having a mouth with which to instruct, educate, re-educate, entertain the students, and not having to listen to the students in return. He instructs the students that they are there to purify their apparently impure nature. Try separating out what is technique and what is mere theory, and you'll find each student has a different opinion. It's a movable feast. If real science or medicine was taught in this way the teacher would be disbarred.

There is a high degree of homogeneity in Mr Goenka's vipassana community. For example I only ever heard one person in about seven years around vipassana centres, who doubted the existence of an historical buddha.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Entropic on September 14, 2013, 04:34:56 AM
If people want to practise this technique and even have their children surrender to Mr Goenka, they should not rely on taxpayer subsidies.
Haha, the old religion-taxation argument from the Atheist handbook. Don't be trying to scrutinise any of your mantras, it could rock your world.

So you think it's ok to get kids to say "I surrender myself completely to ... . my present teacher"?

Don't you think it runs the risk of being and being seen to be a form of child emotional abuse?

Edit. What about spiritual abuse. Note the sentence which I included that taxpayer funds are being used to fund an educational institution, in which children on children's course make a complete surrender to a complete stranger, and then he loads them up with all the religious nonsense about rebirth, impurities, nibbana. I don't think that's ok.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Dharmic Tui on September 14, 2013, 05:48:16 AM
So you think it's ok to get kids to say "I surrender myself completely to ... . my present teacher"?
That would depend on the level of harm resultant from their participation. If the result is integrated humans, then the road is sometimes irrelevant.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Mpgkona on September 14, 2013, 08:36:11 AM
If someone enrolls their own child I would think they have researched it thoroughly. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: redalert on September 14, 2013, 01:39:18 PM
Hi entropic,

Dhamma(the law of nature) must be universally true. It is scientific nothing experienced can break the basic laws of nature.

This is what I was exploring in the earth, water, air, and fire thread.

Why not join in that thread, with some of your questions regarding universal truths, they kind of take this thread off topic.





Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on September 16, 2013, 05:29:13 AM
13 years celibate and counting. Sexual drive doesn't disappear entirely - it's your identification/attachment to it that will determine the level of success you find.
Just coming back to my earlier comment briefly - thanks for your reply Matthew. Yes the craving and desire is only there when I allow myself to think about sexual things - if I avoid this, I can go days without feeling any desire. I guess that's the key in the long term.

It's pretty much like any other attachment I suppose. It seems that one doesn't realise the strength of one's attachments until the reward in question is reduced or eliminated. Staying at a couple of Thai monasteries this year taught me how strongly attached I am to other basic things such as a soft bed (with no ants!), a hot shower each day, food, sleep, and social interaction. And the images of death presented at one monastery shocked me into realising how attached I am to this body (and other people's bodies!) and this life, and the way I habitually block out any thoughts of my eventual death rather than facing this reality.

And of course I suppose the answer to all this attachment is patiently continuing to practice.  :)
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Renze on September 17, 2013, 07:48:05 AM
Hi DarkNightOfNoSoul,

I'm currently in a 90-day 'NoFap'-challenge, I'm at day 15. There is some (pseudo)science behind this that after 90-days your brain will have reset from porn/masturbation 'addiction'. I currently feel very strong sexual urges, so I'm kinda skeptical about it. I hope to complete the challenge and tell you about my experiences. The website that inspired me to try this is www.yourbrainonporn.com (http://www.yourbrainonporn.com) It's all pseudoscience IMO, but I somehow felt triggered to experience it for myself.
Renze, are you still around? How did you fare in the end? Anyone else tried NF?

Hi, I'm back :) I made it to day 30. After that I really got tired of the overwhelming desires. I masturbate regularly again, but it's not as compulsive as it used to be. I don't watch porn everyday anymore. I definitely got something out of it, but I didn't 'reset my brain' completely.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on September 17, 2013, 09:21:22 PM
Hi, I'm back :) I made it to day 30. After that I really got tired of the overwhelming desires. I masturbate regularly again, but it's not as compulsive as it used to be. I don't watch porn everyday anymore. I definitely got something out of it, but I didn't 'reset my brain' completely.
Hi Renze, thanks for the update! Yeah personally I'm a bit sceptical as to whether there's any good science behind the 90-day "reboot" concept, but I'm going to try for 90 days nonetheless (two weeks to go). I'm definitely suspicious about people's claims of "superpowers" (noticeable enhancements in their energy levels, attractiveness to women, and general success in life) - likely these are just placebo or the result of a general self-improvement effort that coincides with their NoFap commitment.

My resolve lately has been tested by the fact that a female friend has been quite suggestive, so just having the availability of sex with an attractive woman seems to crank up the desire levels. But I don't want a relationship, so I suspect that after 90 days I'll end up going back to Mrs Palmer and her five lovely daughters. :) I'm hoping that this experience will at least have taught me some more self-control and that hopefully I can keep the frequency to no more than once a week (and I definitely want to try and avoid porn if I can). I may be being too ambitious. :D
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Matthew on September 17, 2013, 09:35:23 PM
Like anything else porn use is habitual and grows or shrinks based on attachment.  If you are aware that most of the women in the porn industry were sexually abused as children and reenacting that abuse it surely must induce both compassion and revulsion?

The habit is ingrained in neurological pathways and neuro-chemistry. Not indulging reduces these pathways and changes the brain chemistry. And stops feeding the industry which is itself a widely abusive and damaging form of commerce.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Vivek on September 18, 2013, 07:38:34 AM
Maybe documentaries like After Porn Ends DOCUmentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qVZjtv_O7E#) could help get a perspective with regard to porn?
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: Dharmic Tui on September 18, 2013, 07:46:10 AM
Eerie, I watched that just a few nights ago. Pretty sad for the most part although it looked like there was a golden era in the 70s/early 80s that was less grotesque.
Title: Re: meditation and sexual drive
Post by: DarkNightOfNoSoul on September 19, 2013, 01:04:02 AM
Thanks guys for pointing out that porn clearly violates sila; all the more reason to avoid being a consumer of it and thus contributing to the "porn industry". Will watch that doco when I have a chance.