Meditation Forum

Vipassana Meditation Forum => Under The Banyan Tree => Topic started by: VinceField on June 29, 2014, 08:09:30 PM

Title: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on June 29, 2014, 08:09:30 PM
I have heard claims from some monks and teachers that they have witnessed people levitate during meditation.  Does anyone believe this is possible?  In an experiment to see if it was possible, I tried it myself and videotaped it. 

Spontaneous Levitation During Meditation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM94r-5QNUM#ws)
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on June 29, 2014, 09:10:59 PM
If you didn't have video's like the below on your channel (and it didn't look so faked with Adobe software) I'd be impressed.

Vincent Field VISUAL EFFECTS REEL [HD] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31I5c1_AbHg#ws)

After Effects - Flying / Fire Starter / Exploding Man Effects [HD] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHXjKlGLo5Q#ws)

Video Editing Magic - How to get anyone to say anything you want them to (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylxJXZ70VJA#ws)

If you can levitate that's delightful. If you happen to be a pro or experienced amateur with Adobe Video Editing software don't pretend you're flying.

In answer to your question:

I have heard claims from some monks and teachers that they have witnessed people levitate during meditation.  Does anyone believe this is possible?

Maybe, but probably not. It's pretty normal for religious figureheads to have their "achievements and abilities" exagerated to inflate interest in the religion by later adherents.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on June 29, 2014, 10:24:25 PM
Aw you caught me!  ;D 

Don't worry, my intention was not to deceive, just to entertain.  But the idea of levitation has been on my mind lately after hearing a monk say that he has seen it with his own eyes on more than one occasion.  Perhaps it is possible to defy the laws of physics by attuning to a level of consciousness in which one is able to directly experience the illusory nature of the physical world and thus temporarily free oneself from its limitations.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on June 30, 2014, 02:10:13 AM
I don't have enough proof in the metaphysical to give it much weight regardless of the source.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on June 30, 2014, 03:27:31 AM
Aw you caught me!  ;D

It wasn't difficult. Regarding your other comments they all fall into the category of egotistic speculation and are not beneficial to knowing truth.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on June 30, 2014, 03:52:53 AM
That could spark debate over what truth is.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on June 30, 2014, 06:21:22 AM
Quote
It wasn't difficult. Regarding your other comments they all fall into the category of egotistic speculation and are not beneficial to knowing truth.

It wasn't suppose to be.  ;)  And indeed DT, the meaning of truth here could be debated, as "egotistic" speculation has led many to testing hypotheses and ultimately discovering the "truth" regarding the nature of innumerous aspects of our physical reality.  In fact, everything we know as a species is a result from an initial speculation into the nature of phenomenon.  Even the Buddha's speculation (which was born of his thinking mind) that there was more to the meditation practices that were taught to him led him to his eventual enlightenment.  And I could have sworn you speculated in your previous post when you attempted to answer my question about levitation.  Or was that some kind of "egoless" speculation?  I'm not spending my days pondering the nature of levitation and other metaphysical concepts, so I think I'll be fine.       

As a side note, I believe the word "egoic" is more appropriate here, as egotistic means "conceited or self-centered," whereas egoic means "of or relating to the ego or a sense of personal self."  I'd hardly relate curiosity with vanity.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on June 30, 2014, 07:56:38 AM
Well there's something someone can hold as a "truth", using whatever metric they want to use to determine a truth, and then a truth like some sort of empirically observed fact.
And I could have sworn you speculated in your previous post when you attempted to answer my question about levitation.  Or was that some kind of "egoless" speculation?
I didn't really speculate anything, I outlined what will and won't get a lot of consideration as being real, or even likely real, from me. Maybe that is egotistical, although I don't have any personal stock in magical/metaphysical claims being actually true, I just find it a useful tool to avoid lines of enquiry that are likely going to lead to a dead end.

Although my dog barks at noises and shadows, she probably doesn't have much of an ego, so maybe it could go either way.
Title: What is the worth of levitation?
Post by: Quardamon on June 30, 2014, 11:51:22 AM
I have heard claims from some monks and teachers that they have witnessed people levitate during meditation.  Does anyone believe this is possible?
Even so, I think that the most efficient way to go to the first floor is walking up the stairs.  :)

    . . .    the idea of levitation has been on my mind lately after hearing a monk say that he has seen it with his own eyes on more than one occasion.  Perhaps it is possible to defy the laws of physics by attuning to a level of consciousness in which one is able to directly experience the illusory nature of the physical world    . . .   
I heard  about comparable things from people that I trust. The point is that they did not see that as defying anything, nor would they speak of "the illusory nature of the physical world". What they saw, they regarded as the result of many years of training - training that was done for the people. A training that took many hardships. A training that one does not survive, if one does it to "defy laws" or to leave the physical world behind.
(The ones who told me were on such a path themselves. And not for themselves, but to support others.)
Being there for others, being there to support life is part of one's own safety net. Being aloof of reality is dangerous - for oneself and for others. (I am just telling you - I will never prove this.)  :)

That could spark debate over what truth is.
As for me, it could spark a debate about what proper conduct is. Especially, how necessary it is to have proper conduct. Lest one loses orientation.

You are welcome. ;)
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on June 30, 2014, 01:59:41 PM
Quote
I didn't really speculate anything, I outlined what will and won't get a lot of consideration as being real, or even likely real, from me.

LOL DT that post was for Matthew and applies to his post, not yours.  Sorry, I guess I confused you by throwing "DT" in there, I only did so to refer to your question regarding the nature of truth.  The rest of my post is for Matthew.  Nothing I said other than "Indeed the meaning of truth could be speculated here" applies to you.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on June 30, 2014, 05:52:36 PM
I meant egotistical. You used your video editing skills to do something to build your ego - you may not yet have the wisdom to recognise this, yet it is undoubtedly the case.

I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't produce fake videos of fake achievements, nor make fake claims of fake achievements - these things are not beneficial  to understanding truth. It makes me quite sure all your claims of encountering God in your other threads are just as irrelevant as this post.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on June 30, 2014, 08:32:13 PM
LOL DT that post was for Matthew and applies to his post, not yours.  Sorry, I guess I confused you by throwing "DT" in there, I only did so to refer to your question regarding the nature of truth.  The rest of my post is for Matthew.  Nothing I said other than "Indeed the meaning of truth could be speculated here" applies to you.
Hah, I thought the flow of it sounded a bit funny when I initially read it.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Tobin on June 30, 2014, 10:14:30 PM
I meant egotistical. You used your video editing skills to do something to build your ego - you may not yet have the wisdom to recognise this, yet it is undoubtedly the case.

I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't produce fake videos of fake achievements, nor make fake claims of fake achievements - these things are not beneficial  to understanding truth. It makes me quite sure all your claims of encountering God in your other threads are just as irrelevant as this post.

Isn't there also wisdom in not creating conflict where it is unnecessary? You sound more angry than wise.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 01, 2014, 01:50:12 AM
Quote
I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't produce fake videos of fake achievements, nor make fake claims of fake achievements

Wow.  Firstly, the video is just as real as any other video.  Yes, the content has been edited, but if you check the format you will see that it is indeed a real video.  It exists in reality and meets all the criteria for a video. 

Secondly, I do not claim to have actually levitated.  I even explained how I created the effect on the original forum that I posted it on.  The members there were sharp enough to catch the sarcasm and satire of the video and my initial post revealing it.  I didn't think it would be necessary to include a disclaimer that this was not real, as you all seem pretty down to earth and it is clearly not real.  It was nothing more than a joke between me and a couple of people on another forum.  On a thread asking about people's achievements during meditation I jokingly said I could levitate.  I was then (jokingly) asked to post a video of it on youtube, and thought it would be a funny surprise to actually put forth a video.  I did it for others to enjoy and nothing else.  I posted it here simply to spread the smiles.  If I wanted to build my ego and fool people I would have created something that was actually believable and of higher quality, I would have used some actual equipment like a green screen and I would have taken my time editing. 

And once again, the word egotistical does not apply, even as you now seem to imply that it was used to describe the motivations behind my video, whereas you initially used the word to describe the ideas I presented about the nature of levitation.  Tricky guy!  My goal was for the happiness of others, to bring a smile to their faces.  So turn that frown upside down pal!  And maybe take some advice from Tobin while you're at it.  ;)  I would expect one preaching these ideas to behave more in line with the preaching, as it seems clear you have a chip on your shoulder and could have gone about relaying your feelings in a kinder and more sensitive way without the false insinuations.   
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 01, 2014, 03:04:09 AM
Yeah, that's a bunch of egotistical shit if you are honest with yourself. Nuff said.

You don't seem yip realise that every attempt at trickery, bullshit or self-serving BS is egotistical and not egoistical.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: yossarian on July 01, 2014, 05:00:16 AM
It takes a special kind of person to get that sort of reaction out of Matthew   ???

Basically this thread is right on par with the rest of this guy's posts, Total BS! :D
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Tobin on July 01, 2014, 06:23:29 AM
Maybe it's a matter of perspective. I'm not backing anyone up here, just speculating. Everything I've seen from Vince has been at least respectful. I can't say that for others in this post.

If what Vince posts is out of accordance with this forum, then make that the issue, not what he believes or doesn't believe. I've probably already ruffled some feathers and I apologize for that, but I feel those here who are angry should work on their equanimity towards the situation.


Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: siddharthgode on July 01, 2014, 08:58:56 AM
It takes a special kind of person to get that sort of reaction out of Matthew   ???


hahaha its very easy... anyone can do it.  ;)
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 01, 2014, 11:28:01 AM
Tobin, sometimes you will have to kick people in the nuts. When you do that with love and compassion, that's equanimity.  :D
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 01, 2014, 12:21:08 PM
It takes a special kind of person to get that sort of reaction out of Matthew   ???


hahaha its very easy... anyone can do it.  ;)

True, and to be clear I'm not angry, just bored. All the effort that went into making a fake video of meditation-flying, posting it here and subsequent discussion is an absolute frikkin waste of time.

When Vince starts to understand the Dhamma he'll understand that too.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Crystal Palace on July 01, 2014, 01:14:25 PM
VinceField, I just saw your video on YouTube. If it's for entertainment purposes you should put a disclaimer in the video description saying so (or atleast a smiley like this  ;) ). Otherwise, it is 100% deception my friend.

Quote
The members there were sharp enough to catch the sarcasm and satire of the video and my initial post revealing it.

Not everyone is sharp enough. You have no idea how many people would already be convinced if they saw your video on YouTube without reading your forum posts where you acknowledge the video is fake. You've pretty much made people believe in a falsity, and that is bad kamma.

Quote
My goal was for the happiness of others, to bring a smile to their faces. 

You can start by changing the audio to a more funny one rather than the sensational and trying-to-convert type you have right now.

Quote
But the idea of levitation has been on my mind lately after hearing a monk say that he has seen it with his own eyes on more than one occasion.

If you're serious about levitation you could spend your time meditating instead of making videos.

Forgive me if I did not get your joke but I just get the feeling if Matthew had not caught you out, you would have gladly accepted that you did levitate.

Feel free to refute me  :)

Shreyans
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on July 01, 2014, 02:02:20 PM
Im wondering how one can reconcile taking the piss out of levitation but being dead serious about experiencing God.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 01, 2014, 02:02:49 PM
Quote
True, and to be clear I'm not angry, just bored. All the effort that went into making a fake video of meditation-flying, posting it here and subsequent discussion is an absolute frikkin waste of time.

Like you, I suppose you can say I was bored when I made the video.  But I'm almost certain that making that video was more productive than using my time to engage in other types of egotistical behavior like judging and projecting one's own negativity upon others.  You have exemplified the buddhist concepts of attachment and aversion quite clearly here through your use of harsh language, attitude and tone, which are also against the buddhist teachings of kind, helpful and harmonious speech, so I would recommend working on yourself rather than trying to criticize or change others.  If your angle was truly to teach me and you embodied the buddhist concepts that you preach you would have gone about this in a much kinder, calmer, and harmonious way.  Your hostility is apparent and offers a glimpse into your true motivations.

Anyone else taking the position that I have attempted to deceive others likewise needs to get real.  Your governments are killing thousands of people daily and terrorizing their own citizens to fulfill their own hidden agendas and you waste your time speaking out against the deception of a video of a levitation effect!?  Your accusations are laughable. 
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 01, 2014, 04:52:24 PM
Wow.  Firstly, the video is just as real as any other video.  Yes, the content has been edited, but if you check the format you will see that it is indeed a real video.  It exists in reality and meets all the criteria for a video. 

This is a rather inept semantic argument. In the video you claim to fly and originally it said it was the highest you'd done to date, implying it was not the first time you had levitated. It is not a real video of you levitating - in this sense it is no more real than Godzilla or spiderman.

Secondly, I do not claim to have actually levitated. 

Err, yes you did and as above implied it wasn't the first time.

I even explained how I created the effect on the original forum that I posted it on. 

Doing that here would have been honest.

The members there were sharp enough to catch the sarcasm and satire of the video and my initial post revealing it.  I didn't think it would be necessary to include a disclaimer that this was not real, as you all seem pretty down to earth and it is clearly not real.  It was nothing more than a joke between me and a couple of people on another forum.  On a thread asking about people's achievements during meditation I jokingly said I could levitate.  I was then (jokingly) asked to post a video of it on youtube, and thought it would be a funny surprise to actually put forth a video.  I did it for others to enjoy and nothing else.  I posted it here simply to spread the smiles.  If I wanted to build my ego and fool people I would have created something that was actually believable and of higher quality, I would have used some actual equipment like a green screen and I would have taken my time editing. 

You don't understand that all of the above is about building ego?

And maybe take some advice from Tobin while you're at it.  ;)  I would expect one preaching these ideas to behave more in line with the preaching, as it seems clear you have a chip on your shoulder and could have gone about relaying your feelings in a kinder and more sensitive way without the false insinuations.   

The only falsity in this thread is in the original post claiming the ability to levitate.

Like you, I suppose you can say I was bored when I made the video.  But I'm almost certain that making that video was more productive than using my time to engage in other types of egotistical behavior like judging and projecting one's own negativity upon others.

My first reply merely showed the fakery of your video. When you started trying to defend your actions it got boring.

Anyone else taking the position that I have attempted to deceive others likewise needs to get real.  Your governments are killing thousands of people daily and terrorizing their own citizens to fulfill their own hidden agendas and you waste your time speaking out against the deception of a video of a levitation effect!?  Your accusations are laughable. 

Unbelievable! How does a fake video of a levitation effect do anything towards countering "governments .. killing thousands of people daily and terrorizing their own citizens to fulfill their own hidden agendas"? I can't even believe you wrote this and meant it.

Yes, I could have been kinder at times. A long time ago a forum member wrote to me they thought you were trying to "poke" me as a person and "that you time and again refer him back to texts and that you do keep your quiet. I think you are doing very well."

My apologies to you Vince and to all members for being "poked" and not doing so well this time round.

Kindly,

Matthew
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on July 01, 2014, 07:11:30 PM
Well this is a difficult situation then. On the one hand, Matthew does seem heavy handed and aggressive, but on the other I think Vince is so far from the insight this forum is centred on and determined to go places that aggravate there's no reasonable way to convey this to him.

Some serious decisions may need to be made. We've been here before and it was a drawn out exercise in futility.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: siddharthgode on July 01, 2014, 07:28:37 PM
this forum is getting soo boring............... i hardly remember to visit these days  :D
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Quardamon on July 01, 2014, 07:52:47 PM
 :D     :D     :D   
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 01, 2014, 07:55:43 PM
 "the most essential gift for a good writer is a built-in, shock-proof shit detector. This is the writer’s radar and all great writers have had it.” - Ernest Hemingway.

:D  :o  :'(  ::)  8)
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 01, 2014, 10:23:14 PM
I understand that creating video effects does not lead to liberation.  I also understand that some things can and should simply be enjoyed without having to criticize its perceived significance according to the Dhamma, or falsely construe people of purposefully deceiving others, or take a noticeably aggressive attitude when someone does not see eye to eye with you or when a point you make is refuted.  My initial post (and the youtube description) did not reveal that it was an effect because I wanted the element of surprise to be experienced, as it would add to the enjoyment of the video.  If anyone honestly believed that I intended to trick people into believing that I actually levitated then you must have had a moment of naivety and a lapse of judgement, perhaps due to a lack of insight regarding the purpose of the video and my sharing of it. 

Do you guys actually enjoy things in life and take things lightly or is everything pounded into submission and criticized to the bone through your Dhamma filter?  Can you see the hypocrisy of criticizing perceived egotism in others with a bitter, harsh and negative attitude that is so clearly born from egotism?  DT says that I lack the insight that is central to this forum, and yet I would never behave or speak to another person the way Matthew has spoken to me here.  I left the negative reactions of my ego behind when I began to find real inner peace and harmony through my spiritual practices and wholesome mental and physical activity.  Any perception of being "poked" or instigated is nothing more than a delusion of the ego taking phenomenon personally and is likewise contradictory to the preaching taking place here, not to mention simply not applicable, as I haven't even hinted at anything that could even be remotely construed as a personal jab at anyone here.
 
I have not received a harsh or critical response from anyone else on any other forum.  In fact, elsewhere people probably just as studied and practiced in Buddhism as anyone else here have either had something positive to say or did not see the need to say anything at all.  Are the thousands of members of these other forums neglecting to impart helpful insight to me, or are they simply balanced enough to understand purpose and nature the video without needing to construe something negative out of it and not react from their ego due to attachment or aversion to their perceptions of the kind of person they think I am?  I think some people here need to lighten up.  I'm as light as a feather baby and it feels good!   :D
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Quardamon on July 01, 2014, 11:10:00 PM
I have not received a harsh or critical response from anyone else on any other forum.

That is not so:
From http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21031&start=100: (http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21031&start=100:)

Quote
Re: Where is God in Buddhism?

Postby SDC » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:58 pm

    VinceField wrote:It's all about.....

Like I said two pages ago, if you had an axe to grind or even just a simple bone to pick regarding conduct on religious forums then it should have been said outright rather than under the guise of a topic such as “God” of which you knew full well how it was likely to go. Your digression into this borderline self-righteous analysis regarding the conduct of the membership is so blatantly pre-planned and devious.

Thanks for stopping by, and you stay classy, San Diego.


Some serious decisions may need to be made. We've been here before and it was a drawn out exercise in futility.
I agree.
I am not a vegetarian. I eat meat twice a week. I just want the beings that I eat to have had a good life.
I think, Vincent, that you are enjoying your life. You do not need me, and I do not need you. I do not want to be part of your game.
As for me: Farewell.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 01, 2014, 11:24:44 PM
Vince,

You ask, "Do you guys actually enjoy things in life and take things lightly or is everything pounded into submission and criticized to the bone through your Dhamma filter?". There are many things in life I enjoy and take lightly, I love to be in nature, to see the plants growing, the great diversity of animals, birds and insects doing there thing. I play harmonica and sing: last night I met two French mandolin players and jammed with them and sung songs made up on the spot with a friend on the piano. I love cooking fresh food and sharing with friends.

I used to be very physically active, playing football, snowboarding, swimming an hour a day and working out in the gym then running in the evenings. However, in 2004 I injured my neck and have progressively lost control of muscles in the back of my body. This has lead to atrophy, respiratory problems and more. It is now an acute problem and there has been a wholesale failure by the medical profession to investigate and deal with the injury and consequences. I find this very hard. At the moment it is leading to a lack of equanimity as daily survival is getting harder and pain levels are increasing.

I see that this lack of equanimity is due to fear of what may become due to my physical injuries - and the injustice offered to me by the "health system" in the name of medicine. I also see that, at times, this lack of equanimity has "leaked" into other activities including my posting on this forum.

I am sorry that I did not take time to choose wiser words. You seem like a good person. DT points out that you do not seem to be connected to the fundamental insights the practice-base of forum members are working with and I think there is some truth in this. I do not think you intended to truly deceive with this video but there are very many impressionable people out there and we all have a responsibility to help others awaken with whatever level of insight and wisdom we have. In this regard I don't think you chose the wisest way to publish this video. I agree with the sentiments you expressed about government crimes and I spend time in my daily life trying to help educate people about the nature of such things. I think we are on the cusp of either a great revolution toward a just and fairer and more informed society or toward a highly manipulated totalitarian world run by and for the benefit of a small oligarchic elite. I work for the former outcome.

This forum, it's existence and form are a part of that effort: inner transformation must precede outer transformation. The Buddhist "three root poisons" of ignorance, greed and aversion can clearly be seen as great drivers of the vast inequalities in today's world. For this reason I do not take the Dhamma lightly: I see it as having great transformative potential and have committed myself to the Dhamma because from experience I have found truth in the teachings of the Buddha.

Sometimes some of the greatest lessons on this forum are learned from some of the seemingly most difficult discussions. I don't think we should shy away from these. I also see it as imperative that endless speculation on unresolvable issues is to be avoided: they seem to lead to difficult discussions where little is learned.

Please accept my unreserved apologies for my unwise words and unwholesome speech directed at you.

Matthew
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 02, 2014, 12:44:30 AM
Matthew

I appreciate and accept your apology.  I would likewise like to offer my apologies to you, the other members here, and to myself for engaging in any conversations that were not born from wholesome motivations or that did not contain wholesome content.  I knew that you had a condition and I have kept this in mind when attempting to discern the motivations and influencing factors of some of your posts.  I sometimes get sucked into defending myself or my views when they are challenged, when I know that I should simply let things be.  Sometimes I do so to genuinely attempt to broaden the perspectives of others when I believe I have information or experience that others seem to lack which may be of service, but at the same time I am programmed to stand my ground and speak my mind and this is sometimes difficult to overcome.

I don't want to seem like I am purposefully causing friction here, or that I am not suitable for this discussion board.  I believe I have a decent understanding of the main teachings of Buddhism and I try to exemplify them in my daily life in addition to my daily meditation practices.  This could be confirmed by my family and friends, as I see someone here is keen on researching my claims.  I'll give you their numbers if you need verification.  Just kidding.  But between reading books and listening to audio talks in the car on my daily commute to work I spend hours a day engaged in learning and contemplating the practices and philosophies that this message board is founded on. 

Sure there are some aspects of the teachings that don't seem to fit into the realm of experiences that I've had with other lines of spiritual practice, and there are aspects of the teachings that I haven't personally experienced and so am not totally convinced of,  but I don't think I should be condemned for this.  I personally enjoy and believe it is oftentimes beneficial and enriching to hear experiences and perspectives of individuals coming from different paths and practices. 

My point in saying all of this is that I agree with what you stated the purpose of this forum is, as well as the importance and potential of the dhamma.  There is rarely a thought I make or an action I take these days that is not held in light of these teachings. 

I would be very interested in hearing what exactly you think my disconnect is with the fundamental insights of the practices and philosophies of the other forum members here.  Aside from some notions that I don't think anyone here has confirmed through experience (such as the nature of God or the idea that a true self doesn't exist), I haven't noticed much difference in understanding.  Maybe you can bring something to my attention that I am missing.

Quardamon

You seem to have taken some things out of context.  Firstly, I was referring to the levitation video I posted when I said that I have not received any other harsh responses.  Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.    Secondly, if you had continued reading the thread about God that you extracted the quote from in which I was criticized, you would have seen that the poster misunderstood me and later admitted his faulty interpretation of my post.  But I appreciate how important my posts and I must be to you for you to be inspired to go out of your way to research my claims on other forums.  You're making me blush!  :-*
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on July 02, 2014, 01:00:56 AM
Vince, I’m parroting Matthew a little but I guess the long and the short of it is there’s two sort of posters we get;

- ones with a genuine interest in insight/Vipassana meditation who “get” it in rough terms
- people who have a sort of attraction to a more generalised form of meditation but ultimately are still a bit caught up in themselves, who don’t like answering harder questions honestly, and cry “you’re obviously no fun” when others don’t appreciate them trying to steer things towards their own subjective requirements. Usually this type becomes more and more entrenched in behavior that elicits a negative reaction from others.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but you do seem to be running true to form to one of those types. I guess it’s up to you whether you want to continue along the lines of “this is who I am and what I want to do and you need to accept me” or maybe consider a different approach. The different approach may benefit you in many other areas. I guess the challenge is you have some rather contrasting beliefs you are trying to somehow reconcile.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 02, 2014, 01:32:27 AM
Quote
ultimately are still a bit caught up in themselves, who don’t like answering harder questions honestly, and cry “you’re obviously no fun” when others don’t appreciate them trying to steer things towards their own subjective requirements.

Like I requested of Matthew, if you can provide some examples- actually, as many as you can conjure up- so I have a better understanding of your perspective of me and can better recognize things that I may need to work on, that would be appreciated.

Quote
Usually this type becomes more and more entrenched in behavior that elicits a negative reaction from others.

The irony here is that negative reactions are a direct result of being caught up in oneself and embodying characteristics which go against Buddhist teachings.  Reactions can sometimes speak louder than their cause.

Quote
I guess it’s up to you whether you want to continue along the lines of “this is who I am and what I want to do and you need to accept me” or maybe consider a different approach.

I don't request that anyone accepts me, although I do try to convey my thoughts so that I am understood.  I accept myself and I am content with that.  I presently can't conceive of a better alternative to approach life and the bigger concepts that are dealt with in these philosophies and practices.  I have reasonable faith based on previous results of myself and others, my beliefs are not rigid or set in stone but rather mostly influenced by my personal experiences but are open to change, I am not limited to just one body or system of belief but am developing through various traditions and practices to ensure an unbiased and more holistic learning, development, and perspective, and I strive to remain mindful of my thoughts and actions as to exemplify wholesome values and characteristics in order to improve myself and develop spiritually along the very lines taught in Buddhism, which includes releasing attachments and lessening the influence of ego.  If you have any suggestions as to ways I can improve my approach I am open to hear them.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on July 02, 2014, 09:10:42 AM
Like I requested of Matthew, if you can provide some examples- actually, as many as you can conjure up- so I have a better understanding of your perspective of me and can better recognize things that I may need to work on, that would be appreciated.
For the sake of other people reading this thread/forum I'm not going to do that. If you are genuinely interested drop me a PM and I can go into it if you wish.
Quote
The irony here is that negative reactions are a direct result of being caught up in oneself and embodying characteristics which go against Buddhist teachings.  Reactions can sometimes speak louder than their cause.
I was talking typically about the person soliciting for such reactions. I don't consider what I've said to you negative (or positive, for that matter), however after maybe my 2nd ever post to you claimed my posting was negative (not that exact word, but don't have the energy to wade back through posts).
Quote
If you have any suggestions as to ways I can improve my approach I am open to hear them.  Thanks.
Your approach is as you have said; an eclectic mix of whatever takes hold (I'm paraphrasing there) including some dualism elements which are at odds with some of the core principles here. I can't do much in the way of suggestions in that regard, because that's how you've chosen to undertake your spiritual path (or whatever you want to call it).
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 02, 2014, 01:31:59 PM
Vincefield, both Matthew and DT raised this issue but you did not answer. Did you really experience god as you have described in your other posts?
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 02, 2014, 03:33:13 PM
Vincefield, both Matthew and DT raised this issue but you did not answer. Did you really experience god as you have described in your other posts?

Middleway,

He experienced something he chooses to call "God". His descriptions of "God" have been contradictory and are no indication that he experienced "God" though I do not doubt he believes he did.

Asking these questions falls into the realm of unanswerable questions unlikely to lead to beneficial conversation or knowledge by their very nature.

Can prove "God" exists? - Answer, No.
Can prove "God" does not exist? - Answer No.

These are the types of questions the Buddha warned against because they lead to clinging to views and to "a thicket of views" - all of which get in the way of experiencing the now of now.

Kindly,

Matthew
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 02, 2014, 05:18:11 PM
Matthew,

I was not referring to god as an issue. I know where I stand on that and made myself very clear in my posts relating that issue. Vincefield has shown tendency to manipulate people and what they said on his videos. This has raised a question whether he is being truthful in his posts regarding his experiences.

Middleway
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 02, 2014, 05:25:49 PM
Vincefield, both Matthew and DT raised this issue but you did not answer. Did you really experience god as you have described in your other posts?

I don't quite understand your question, or at least why you are asking it.  I clearly described what I experienced, and simply called it "God" for lack of a better word, as the experience fit certain definitions of what God is among certain systems of belief.  The details of the experience are there to be read.  Forget I even used the word God, as that might lead to preconceived notions about the experience or my interpretation of it, and just read the experience for what it is.  I have no problem chucking the word God.  The truth is in the experience, not the labeling of it.  All of this has already been covered in that thread buddy.

It seems you are asking here if I was telling the truth when I described my experiences, which is rather bizarre, as I don't believe I have exhibited any behavior that would make one think I was a liar.  I have nothing to gain by making up stories or inventing experiences, and I don't believe Matthew or DT even came close to insinuating this so I am not sure where you are coming from with your post pal. 

Edit:

Quote
Vincefield has shown tendency to manipulate people and what they said on his videos. This has raised a question whether he is being truthful in his posts regarding his experiences.

LOL That is a far stretch from reality buddy. 
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Dharmic Tui on July 02, 2014, 06:45:32 PM
From your reality maybe.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Tobin on July 02, 2014, 07:58:07 PM
I think the whole God issue has been dealt with. As Matthew stated, as well as the Buddha himself and from what can clearly be seen in these threads, is that the topic is heated and frivolous.

As far as this particular thread goes, it has gotten out of hand. Maybe this should have been part of the off-topic forum categories. I personally saw the humor in it and didn't take it for any more then that.

Vince, I understand you have over a decade of experience with meditation, but you've also stated yourself that you're new to insight styles. If you're here to butt heads, I'm sure you'll quickly find your way out the door, but if you're here as a beginner like me, we both have to understand that we are the newbies and we came here to learn. There is a wealth of information from some pretty amazing people on this forum. Don't waste it!
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 02, 2014, 08:53:32 PM
Matthew,

I was not referring to god as an issue. I know where I stand on that and made myself very clear in my posts relating that issue. Vincefield has shown tendency to manipulate people and what they said on his videos. This has raised a question whether he is being truthful in his posts regarding his experiences.

Middleway

Apologies, misunderstood.

Matthew
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 03, 2014, 12:57:39 AM

Apologies, misunderstood.

Matthew

No need for an apology Matthew. I was trying to be brief and direct with my question.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 03, 2014, 01:12:39 AM
Vincefield, you said you have been pursuing the spiritual path for the last 10 years or more. Making light of holocaust albeit to prove a point in movie editing comes from an unwholesome mind. The experiences you described you had are only possible if one let's go off ego completely. Based on your posts on this forum, it is obvious that your ego is 100 percent intact, alive and kicking. Either you must be hallucinating in which case you may want to go to a psychiatrist an get help or you are a fraud. The latter is more likely closer to the truth.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 03, 2014, 01:17:47 AM
Tobin, I did not want this thread to end with a bully getting respectability from Matthew's apology. 
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 03, 2014, 02:01:24 AM
Well, someone doesn't like me very much!   ???

I only care to comment on your statement that the experiences I have described are only possible if one is free of ego. 

This is simply not true.  Anyone can learn to navigate in the out of body state, big egos and small alike.  It's really more about technique than it is about one's level of spiritual development, at least at first.  However, to get to the higher dimensions one needs to refine one's subtle energy body system so that one can attune to the higher energies that comprise these higher realms.  This refinement happens naturally with experience, although it can be further assisted by energy work (manipulating the body's subtle energies or chi to remove blockages and raise one's internal vibrational state) and by removing limiting belief systems, negative tendencies, and attachments which keep a person in a lower vibratory state. 

Many individuals have reported similar experiences and experiences that even go beyond the limits of my own, and these people are not Buddhas but normal individuals with their own particular attachments like any of us here.  I am not sure what your source is for making this statement, and I'm likewise unsure what I did to earn the title "bully," but I believe you are mistaken on both accounts my friend.  I don't mind being called a fraud, but I thought I would inform you that your theoretical basis for this claim is false.   

I wish you peace, love and harmony, even if you do not wish it upon me. 
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 03, 2014, 03:29:13 AM
Well, someone doesn't like me very much!   ???

I only care to comment on your statement that the experiences I have described are only possible if one is free of ego. 

This is simply not true.  Anyone can learn to navigate in the out of body state, big egos and small alike.  It's really more about technique than it is about one's level of spiritual development, at least at first.  However, to get to the higher dimensions one needs to refine one's subtle energy body system so that one can attune to the higher energies that comprise these higher realms.  This refinement happens naturally with experience, although it can be further assisted by energy work (manipulating the body's subtle energies or chi to remove blockages and raise one's internal vibrational state) and by removing limiting belief systems, negative tendencies, and attachments which keep a person in a lower vibratory state. 

Many individuals have reported similar experiences and experiences that even go beyond the limits of my own, and these people are not Buddhas but normal individuals with their own particular attachments like any of us here.  I am not sure what your source is for making this statement, and I'm likewise unsure what I did to earn the title "bully," but I believe you are mistaken on both accounts my friend.  I don't mind being called a fraud, but I thought I would inform you that your theoretical basis for this claim is false.   

I wish you peace, love and harmony, even if you do not wish it upon me. 

Vincefield, I don’t know you personally to either like you or dislike you. I certainly dislike this thing called “ego” that I am trying to get rid off myself.
 
Looks like you and I agree on one thing…you are so full of it. Several members have warned you or brought this to your attention with little success. I have myself gently reminded you at least on two occasions. I asked you to contemplate on the audacity with which you made a certain statement. Your ego wouldn’t pay attention. I reminded you that the religions you were trashing were founded on the basis of thousands of enlightened individuals; again your ego would not listen. You yourself have admitted that you started reading about “no-self” concept a few days ago and then you brazenly expressed your opinion criticizing widely accepted views on the subject.
 
After your explanation in the quotes above, now I am fully convinced what you have experienced are hallucinations by employing mind altering techniques. These are temporary states of mind that produce experiences that are qualitatively different than regular states of consciousness. These experiences don’t lead you anywhere other than inflating your ego.

What we are practicing here is to let go off our ego which leads us to stream entry and then onto Nibbana. Your mind altering techniques are of no use to me or any of the members of this forum.  You don't need 14 years to get to where you are. Try psychedelic drugs, you will there in 15 minutes. You have wasted 14 years of your time and now you are wasting our time. Please cease and desist these off-topic conversations and contemplate on your ego.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Tobin on July 03, 2014, 06:30:54 AM
Tobin, I did not want this thread to end with a bully getting respectability from Matthew's apology.

I don't think there was ever any fear of that Middleway.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: VinceField on July 03, 2014, 06:37:59 AM
Middleway

I hope you are happy that you are now receiving some attention from me.  I didn't pay your previous comments any mind because either the question you raised had already been addressed (as was the case with your first post on my thread about God), or your comment was an absolutely absurd exaggeration of reality (as was the case with your second post on the same thread).  The fact that you took my statement "My personal opinion is that no religion contains complete truth" and contorted it into accusing me of "trashing" other religions and insinuating that I disrespected "thousands of enlightened people" displayed just how unbalanced your view is, and frankly I didn't feel the need to waste my time responding to that.

I am also rather bewildered as to how you went from telling me "you are far advanced in the path than I am at this point in time. I can only dream of the stage you have achieved thus far." and sending me "warm regards," to essentially attacking me, claiming that my experiences are invalid, that I am "so full of it," and somehow labeling me as a "bully."  And I am rather amused at your statement "you don't need 14 years to get to where you are" as if you have any idea of who I am, what I do or what the quality of my life is.  The fact of the matter is that you lack the knowledge, experience and insight to discern whether my spiritual experiences are valid and what the results of them have been in my life. 

If you think that not conforming to every aspect of the Buddhist belief system makes me an egomaniac then you must have overlooked the Buddha's teaching of not taking his word as ultimate truth but experiencing the truth for oneself. 

It is also rather clear that your desire to say these things to me is born from your ego and you have no intention of being of service to anyone but yourself.  Criticizing. slandering and negating another person and their experiences as you have just done is inharmonious speech and undoubtedly a product of the aversions and attachments of an unruly ego.  I say this not to criticize you but to simply bring this to your attention, as oftentimes we are unknowingly victims of our own hypocrisy, so maybe give a good ponder into the reasons for you saying these things to me and what attachments and aversions arise when doing so.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: siddharthgode on July 03, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
Can you all plz STFU  ???

i would love it if moderators will close this topic.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: shu on July 03, 2014, 11:14:52 AM
Can you all plz STFU  ???

i would love it if moderators will close this topic.

 :D

I second this. And perhaps move the thread to a different subforum, since it clearly has nothing to do with "Meditation, Practice And The Path."

Have a fine day, everybody.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Middleway on July 04, 2014, 12:02:48 AM
Can you all plz STFU  ???


This is disappointing.
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: siddharthgode on July 04, 2014, 05:41:51 AM
Can you all plz STFU  ???


This is disappointing.

Iiii we both feel the same !!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Tobin on July 04, 2014, 05:47:11 AM
Can you all plz STFU  ???


This is disappointing.

Really? I thought it was kind of funny. :P
Title: Re: Levitation while meditating!?
Post by: Matthew on July 04, 2014, 12:31:43 PM
Vince,

Quote
Middleway

I hope you are happy that you are now receiving some attention from me.  I didn't pay your previous comments any mind because either the question you raised had already been addressed (as was the case with your first post on my thread about God), or your comment was an absolutely absurd exaggeration of reality (as was the case with your second post on the same thread).  The fact that you took my statement "My personal opinion is that no religion contains complete truth" and contorted it into accusing me of "trashing" other religions and insinuating that I disrespected "thousands of enlightened people" displayed just how unbalanced your view is, and frankly I didn't feel the need to waste my time responding to that.


You are seriously being disrespectful and narcissistic in this post.

Firstly middleway is trying to point out the fundamental difference between your approach and the thread that ties together discussion here.

Secondly he is not happy even to be putting what he says in these terms - it comes clearly from a frustration that you don't get the teachings of the Buddha on basics about the nature of ego and the purpose of the Dhamma.

That you respond in such a self righteous and self important manner is something that disrupts the forum on the one hand and shows lack of understanding on the other, lack of any insight into the unreal nature of the ego self and is determination to cling to view.

I'm in agreement with those that want this thread shut. I don't see anything more positive coming from it. If anyone wants to post anything else shoot a PM to myself or Vivek saying what you want to say and why and we'll unlock the thread again. For now I am locking it.

Matthew