Author Topic: The Eight Fold Path  (Read 3831 times)

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
The Eight Fold Path
« on: July 23, 2011, 12:22:03 PM »
Hi Sangha,

The more I sit (or don't sit as is the case is right now  ::) ) the more I realise the importance of having a grip on the whole of the Ancient Path. I do not really spend much time contemplating what is means, all these 'Right this and Right that' but I've come to realise I should!
As  a forum we have often used the phrase Noble speech. We talk about skillful and unskillful speech. Usually when there is some drama unfolding and we throw these phrases around and sometimes admit to not being 'skillful'.

I want to skip right to this part of the path and talk about it a bit becuase 1) I need to understand it better 2) As an internet forum, it is probably the part of the path we can most excel in when posting comments and opinions, advice and arguements around here.


I am no expert on any of the factors of the Ancient Path. Infact, I'm down right lazy. After so many years in the 'spiritual game' I just bleep over all the mundane stuff and I want to get to the juicy bit; Good meditation!!!! It probably explains why I have basically failed to realise anything even close to the changes I need in my life.

I think as a forum, we really would do well to have a close look at this factor of the path. here is a link to the access to insight summary of the Buddhas teachings on the subject.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/


The other point I would like to make, and open up a discussion on is this; Do we have the right or authority to offend someone else because we thing that it will help them grow? To put it another way, is it our responsibility at anytime to observe other peoples ego and seek to correct them?

I will leave these as questions and discussion starters for now, I have an opinion of course, but I would like to not throw that out there first.

In the dhamma

Andrew
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 12:27:32 PM by Andrew »
getting it done

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 03:16:56 PM »
Love the topic  :)
Quote
When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

Forum which talks this way is Dharma Overground led by D. Ingram
They have some experienced yogis aboard which dont buy into personal emotional chatter  ;D
We too are getting there. Most of us in this sangha just recently started practicing lacking wisdom. We are a relatively new Sangha. We are indeed on the way creating a strong community.
We say thing to one another which seem rude at that very moment but once we all reflect on those words we can discover lots of stuff in our minds. We cling we investigate we uncling we carry on practicing.

A few month back i suggested to have a day called Noble Silence on this forum so we all could reflect in silence. Most where against this. Noble Silence is as Noble as Noble Speach. IMO they go hand in hand :)

I say lead by example the way Kidnovice (Dylan) does. He is The Noble Speaker of this community.

Thank you for starting this important topic.

Andrew

  • Member
    • friends tell me things, sometimes I listen.
    • Letting Go.
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 03:49:51 PM »
.
Noble Silence is as Noble as Noble Speach. IMO they go hand in hand :)

I say lead by example the way Kidnovice (Dylan) does. He is The Noble Speaker of this community.


That is indeed a good point. What Matthew said to me the other day about being an example, without the 'preachy' words as such has stuck with me. I've got to hit the sack now, but I look forward to talking more about this topic, I certainly know I need to get the knowledge in this skull!

May we all cause no harm with our words, but choose Noble Silence in our lives if that is all we can manage!
(I wish I had thought about that earlier today, but that's another story)

May the Enlightened Ones truth be ours too.

Andrew

getting it done

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 04:11:23 PM »


May we all cause no harm with our words, but choose Noble Silence in our lives if that is all we can manage!


anicca

someguy

  • Guest
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 08:12:49 PM »
The other point I would like to make, and open up a discussion on is this; Do we have the right or authority to offend someone else because we thing that it will help them grow? To put it another way, is it our responsibility at anytime to observe other peoples ego and seek to correct them?

I try not to because I'm not sure if I'm correcting them for their ego or for mine.

Now if someone specifically asks for advice/help on something, then I might offer my opinion. But to offer a correction unsolicited? I prefer not to.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:15:27 PM by someguy »

Masauwu

  • Member
    • chipping away
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 08:15:47 PM »
not sure if I'm correcting them for their ego or for mine
This is true wisdom, thanks for this insight. :)
The summer river:
although there is a bridge, my horse
goes through the water.

dragoneye

  • Member
  • on the wings of compassion and wisdom
    • Observant
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 12:10:46 AM »
I have found when I use un-skillful speech that I am also lacking equanimity. I am therefore not seeing clearly.
I have also found that my using un-skillful speech has a cumulative effect on my friends and family lessening loving kindness for all.
Our words can be mirrors for us to check ourselves in and they are presents of metta for everyone in the Sangha.
Warmly,
DE

Dragoneye

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 11:41:46 PM »
Mindfulness and equanimity are the keys to unlocking this subject as a daily lived reality, not mere words.

M
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

Jeeprs

  • Guest
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 12:18:20 AM »
Quote
Do we have the right or authority to offend someone else because we thing that it will help them grow? To put it another way, is it our responsibility at anytime to observe other peoples ego and seek to correct them?

Criticism does not have to be personal. One skill I think we all need to learn is to be critical in a non-personal way. In fact I think the Buddhist tradition has been like this from the very start. The Buddha himself was obviously a critical thinker. Generally speaking he was not harsh, but he could, and did, speak harshly to monks that he saw mis-representing him or the teaching. He doesn't hesitate to call out a monk as a fool if he deserved it.  But then, monks are up for that. They have signed up to be criticized, so to speak. Not everyone has put themselves in that position.

We are all attached to our illusions to some extent, and some are deeply attached. You can't necessarily criticize a person who has a deep investment in an illusion. They really don't want to be criticized, and will take any criticism as an insult. So they have to be open to criticism or at least feedback. I learned this from a relationship many years ago. It was a person whom I thought was a very close friend, and whom I thought was also committed to the spiritual path. So I had the temerity to talk about how ego is the major hindrance on the spiritual path. Boy, his ego did not like that one bit, and it more or less ended the friendship. So you have be aware if the person you are speaking to is up for it. You can actually ask them: do you mind if I give you some feedback? (Of course, in this environment, it is different, because we are not personally interacting, and forums are specifically designed to give and elicit feedback. I am talking inter-personal relationships.)

The other thing is: not being attached to views. This usually manifests as the desire to be right, and to show the other person he is wrong. It is a very deep-seated tendency and is quite natural. But we have to learn to serve the truth quite impersonally, to discuss it and indicate what it is, without thinking 'I am right about this, and the other person is wrong' - even if that is true! Making others wrong is always an ego trip. If they really have got it all upside down, and you help them understand it correctly, then by all means it is a cause for happiness, because you have helped another, and it's a win-win. If you really don't agree, and you can see you're never going to agree, walk away. And finally, whenever you receive thoughtful criticism from another, thank them for it. If they have taken the time to criticize your ideas, and have done so respectfully, this should be regarded as an honour, not as a personal slight, even if it is painful.

Matthew

  • The Irreverent Buddhist
  • Staff
  • Meditation: It's a D.I.Y. project.
    • KISS: Keep it simple stupid.
    • Getting nowhere slowly and enjoying every moment.
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 12:21:44 AM »
Skilful speech may still offend if the listener is not a skilful listener. We do not have the right to set out to offend, but we have the right to offend by default in such circumstances.

M
~oOo~     Tat Tvam Asi     ~oOo~    How will you make the world a better place today?     ~oOo~    Fabricate Nothing     ~oOo~

dragoneye

  • Member
  • on the wings of compassion and wisdom
    • Observant
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 03:45:53 AM »
Quote
Skilful speech may still offend if the listener is not a skilful listener. We do not have the right to set out to offend, but we have the right to offend by default in such circumstances.

M

Thank you for that reminder Matthew
Warmly,
Tom
Dragoneye

Stefan

  • The Marvellous Omannobazong!!!
  • Member
  • love is the key
    • Vipassana (Goenka), Freestyle, Family, God
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 07:31:24 AM »

But shouldn't skilful speech be tailored to the size of the listener?
I think skilful speech is the way of presenting "truth" in a way the listener can accept rather than scare him off.


anicca

Morning Dew

  • Guest
Re: The Eight Fold Path
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 09:00:28 AM »
Skilful speech may still offend if the listener is not a skilful listener. We do not have the right to set out to offend, but we have the right to offend by default in such circumstances.
M

But shouldn't skilful speech be tailored to the size of the listener?
I think skilful speech is the way of presenting "truth" in a way the listener can accept rather than scare him off.


My sister was talking to me once and saying how she has lots of stress and problems in life and how she has a feeling that her bad thoughts are creating these problems.
I told her about how I too percieved life in a similar manner and how my paranoia took over my life creating problems and how sitting in Shamatha helpped tremendously to detach from such a deluded mind. She told me that Im trying to convert her into another religion even though I only talked about a sitting meditation nothing more. I even dont consider myself a Buddhist (irony)

My good friend told me how governments will always find ways to control our minds and I told him that in meditation one can actualy detach from all that crap etc ... both my wife and him told me that I am beeing too religious and trying to convert them even though I did not even tell them to start practicing just giving my own point of view based on actual experience.

We all aproach each other from our limited culturaly conditioned perception bound to misinterpret one another. Unless we come to the point of realisation where we actualy see the deluded nature of our minds and stop taking that very mind seriously, stop idetifying oneself with it.

Native American elder said;

Quote
"Let us put our minds together as one."

--Irving Powless, Sr., ONONDAGA

If we sat in a circle and put an object in the center of the circle and we all described what we saw, everyone would see different points of view from each other. Some would even see opposites because they would be sitting on opposite sides of the circle. In other words, you don't have to see what I see for you to be right. In fact, everyone in the circle is right based on their own point of view. If we are willing to listen to everyone's point of view, then we can get a more accurate description of the object in the center. This is one way to put our minds together. When we get the clarity from each other, we should give thanks and be grateful to each other.

Krishnamurti;
Quote
Jiddu Krishnamurti -  Learn the Art of Listening

Jiddu Krishnamurti: One does not listen to another actually. If you do listen, there is always a defence, there is always a resistance to anything that is said, to something new. There is an immediate reaction to resist because it might be disturbing. So, there is an art of listening: to listen to what is being said, not interpret what is being said to suit your own convenience, to your own traditional language, but to listen to the word, the meaning of that word, to see that we understand each other.

To listen, one has to have not only a certain quality of attention but also a sense of affection, a sense of trying to understand what the other fellow is saying. Communication is possible at depth only when both of us are concerned about the same subject, about the same ideas, or concerned about a certain thing. Then we are both in communication with each other. But if you resist, as perhaps you are going to resist a great deal of what the speaker is going to say, then communication is not possible.

One has to learn the art of listening. When you listen to music which you like, there is no resistance. You go with it, you shake your head, you clap your hands, you do all kinds of things to express your appreciation, your understanding of the quality of the music, and so on. There is no form of defence, no form of resistance; you are going with it; you are flowing with it. In the same way, kindly listen, not to be instructed, not to be told what to do, but to understand what is being said.

So, please learn the art of listening, not to the speaker only, but to your wife, to your husband, to your children, to the birds, to the wind, to the breeze, so that you become extraordinarily sensitive in listening. When you listen, you catch up quickly, you don't have to have a lot of explanations, analyses and descriptions; you are flowing with each other. We are talking together as two friends sitting in a park, or in a wood, quiet, birds are singing, there's plenty of light coming through the leaves on the floor and there is a sense of appreciation of beauty. When you so listen, the miracle takes place. When you so listen, it is like sowing a seed. If the seed is vital, strong, healthy, and the ground is properly prepared, it inevitably grows. So one has to learn the art of listening.

If you listen very, very carefully, you capture it so quickly, the meaning of what the other is saying. Perhaps many of you have listened to the speaker for a number of years, unfortunately; and you get used to it; you get used to his language, his gesture, how he looks and so on, and you gradually slip off. And you say, 'Why haven't I, after years of listening to this man, changed?' It is because you have actually not listened with your heart, with your mind, with your whole energy. So, don't blame the speaker, but rather learn, if one may suggest most respectfully, the way of listening. There is great beauty in listening to a bird, to the wind among the leaves, and to a word that is spoken with depth, with meaning, with passion.