Author Topic: For the benefit of all.  (Read 185 times)

TheJourney

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For the benefit of all.
« on: July 31, 2017, 06:18:15 PM »
Last time I posted a little bit on meditation and Visuddhimagga. Someone challenged me to prove what I said. As part of my practice, I decided not to respond at all. People can do their own research. I don't need to tit for tat.  I found a website that is worthy for people to expand their knowledge. No need to believe in anything. Accept what you want to accept or do your own research or whatever.

Again, this site mentions as I have mentioned that there are two tracks of jhanas. Ariya jhana - the one that Buddha attained before his enlightenment and one he had attained as a child.   The other track is  Anariya jhana. Buddha attained up to the 8th jhana, but when he came out of the meditation he was back to the same impure mind he had before the meditation.

What is confusing about Buddhism is the mixture of Hinduism (Visuddhimagga) pushed as Buddhism in Theraveda teaching. It is exactly the one that Buddha abandoned and went for the meditation he did as a child.  What Buddha abandoned has been pushed to us as Buddha's practice.

From puredhamma.net:
5. The breath meditation needs to be used appropriately, with the understanding that it can provide only temporary relief. This breath meditation is the same meditation that was used by the Hindu yogis to attain mundane (Anariya) jhanas even before the Buddha.
◾Since the time Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga was accepted as the basis of Theravada Dhamma (in the fifth century CE), this “literal interpretation” of the anapanasati has been used.
◾The real anapanasati bhavana is not described in the visuddhimagga, and is not described in any  Mahayana or even Theravada texts today. One needs to go directly to the Tipitaka to find it; it is described in many suttas, for example the Assäsa sutta. I could not find an English translation of this sutta. Another one Arittha Sutta, and the translation published at the Access to insight site is not complete, even though it does contain Buddha’s admonition to Ven. Arittha that in and out breathing is only one version of anapanasati (in the sutta it says it is NOT the Ariya or Noble version)  : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.006.than.html.

6. Thus there are two interpretations of the anapanasati bhavana: one is the conventional “breathing” version and the other is the real version recommended by the Buddha, which has a wider interpretation, including breathing to a minor extent.
◾The Anapanasati sutta is the condensed version of the Buddha’s desana on anapanasati bhavana. As with most main suttas, the discourse was condensed in to the form for easy transmission. Other suttas, mostly by Ven. Sariputta, have explained the terms like “äna” and “äpana” in detail (like the Assäsa Sutta).
◾See, “Is Ānāpānasati Breath Meditation?“, where I provide a detailed discussion based on the Tipitaka.

Buddhaghosa was a Hindu before converting to be a Buddhist later on; see, “The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa” by B. C. Law (1927). Some say he became a Buddhist in order to introduce Hindu concepts to Buddha Dhamma. Either that or he just used whatever he understood to be the anapanasati without any malicious intentions. Either way, the correct interpretation had been hidden for all these years; see, “Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga – A Focused Analysis“.

Personal Direct Experience:
I have done the Hindu version of Anapanasati for nearly 18 months. It has always been striving, strenuous, and unpredictable. I can reach access concentration (with nimitta sign), but falter again in later meditation sessions, within few days later.

I have tried TWIM and Buddha's version of Anapanasati for most of this year now. There is total relaxation. It is easy to meditate. Body and mind are relaxed and calm.  Mind easily settles down into tranquil state within 10 minutes.

Anyone can argue, but I will not respond to this chain. If you feel like arguing, feel free as well.  I share this website because I think it has a lot to offer for newcomers to gain knowledge.

TheJourney

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Re: For the benefit of all.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 06:19:54 PM »

Re: For the benefit of all.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 08:34:32 PM »
Lol.  ;)

Nicky

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Re: For the benefit of all.
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2017, 05:39:59 AM »
Last time I posted a little bit on meditation and Visuddhimagga. Someone challenged me to prove what I said.

 ;D

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Again, this site mentions as I have mentioned that there are two tracks of jhanas. Ariya jhana - the one that Buddha attained before his enlightenment and one he had attained as a child.   The other track is  Anariya jhana. Buddha attained up to the 8th jhana, but when he came out of the meditation he was back to the same impure mind he had before the meditation.

Non-sense. The Pali suttas do not mention ariya & anariya jhana.

Quote
What is confusing about Buddhism is the mixture of Hinduism (Visuddhimagga) pushed as Buddhism in Theraveda teaching. It is exactly the one that Buddha abandoned and went for the meditation he did as a child.  What Buddha abandoned has been pushed to us as Buddha's practice.

The meditation he did as a child happened spontaneously. It was not taught to the child by a Hindu teacher.  ::)

Quote
From puredhamma.net:
5. The breath meditation needs to be used appropriately, with the understanding that it can provide only temporary relief. This breath meditation is the same meditation that was used by the Hindu yogis to attain mundane (Anariya) jhanas even before the Buddha.

Hinduism did not exist before the Buddha.  ::)

Quote
◾Since the time Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga was accepted as the basis of Theravada Dhamma (in the fifth century CE), this “literal interpretation” of the anapanasati has been used.

 Buddhaghosa did not understand anapanasati.

Quote
◾The real anapanasati bhavana is not described in the visuddhimagga, and is not described in any  Mahayana or even Theravada texts today.

Anapanasati is described in the Anapanasati Sutta

Quote
6. Thus there are two interpretations of the anapanasati bhavana: one is the conventional “breathing” version and the other is the real version recommended by the Buddha, which has a wider interpretation, including breathing to a minor extent.

Breathing is merely a "sign". The Buddha did not teach to focus directly on breathing.  ???

Quote
◾The Anapanasati sutta is the condensed version of the Buddha’s desana on anapanasati bhavana. As with most main suttas, the discourse was condensed in to the form for easy transmission. Other suttas, mostly by Ven. Sariputta, have explained the terms like “äna” and “äpana” in detail (like the Assäsa Sutta).

Where is the Assäsa Sutta?

Quote
Buddhaghosa was a Hindu before converting to be a Buddhist later on; see, “The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa” by B. C. Law (1927). Some say he became a Buddhist in order to introduce Hindu concepts to Buddha Dhamma. Either that or he just used whatever he understood to be the anapanasati without any malicious intentions. Either way, the correct interpretation had been hidden for all these years; see, “Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga – A Focused Analysis“.

Very few Buddhists are actually interested in Buddhaghosa these days. Who cares about Buddhaghosa? Buddhist today do not understand & practise Anapanasati correctly because of their own delusions & because of the delusions of monks, scholars, translators & teachers who still wrongly translate Anapanasati as "mindfulness of breathing". Anyone that uses the translation of "of" misunderstands, which means 99% of Buddhists.

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I have done the Hindu version of Anapanasati for nearly 18 months. It has always been striving, strenuous, and unpredictable. I can reach access concentration (with nimitta sign), but falter again in later meditation sessions, within few days later.

There is no Hindu version of Anapanasati in the Pali suttas. Also, you did not reach 'access concentration' because access concentration does not falter. That is why it is called 'access' or 'neighborhood' concentration, because it accesses stream-entry & always stays within the neighbourhood of the objects. If your concentration faltered, it was only "momentary concentration".

Quote
I have tried TWIM and Buddha's version of Anapanasati for most of this year now. There is total relaxation. It is easy to meditate. Body and mind are relaxed and calm.  Mind easily settles down into tranquil state within 10 minutes.

You are still not enlightened after one year therefore you obviously are not practising anything the Buddha practised. Your post shows your mind is not enlightened but, instead, is a mind of restlessness & non-discernment. If your mind was enlightened, it would understand the meaning of "anapanasati", particularly the meaning of "sati". When "sati" is understood it will become evident there can be no such thing as "Hindu anapanasati" because anapanasati must always have "sati". "Sati" means to keep "right view" in the mind therefore there can only be Buddhist ananapansati because Right View only exists in the Buddhist eightfold path.

Quote
Anyone can argue, but I will not respond to this chain. If you feel like arguing, feel free as well.  I share this website because I think it has a lot to offer for newcomers to gain knowledge.

You cannot argue because what you are posting is wrong. Also, I doubt any newcomer could actually understand what you are attempting to communicate.

Instead of copy & pasting scholarly words from a crazy blog, why don't you simply post an easy to understand, step-by-step instruction, of how to practise what you claim to be practising. Then we can all try out your method. Thanks  :)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 06:00:47 AM by Nicky »

Laurent

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Re: For the benefit of all.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 03:14:04 PM »
I find the approach interesting and honest, but it would be lots of things to debate, as the breath in/ breath out interpretation of anapana, or assapassa, is not only based upon a translation of the pali words, but also on logical inferences with the whole of the pali texts.
However, Buddha has effectively taught to reject evil thoughts and to cultivate right thoughts, but this is not new, and is (should be) already practiced by any person who claims to be a disciple of Buddha, at the light of usual interpretation of the pali texts. Though, it is true that those times, few buddhists really practice the subjects of reflexion taught by the Buddha, which are an excellent way to clear one's view and increase the sense of urgency.
Ideologies are either a mistake or a hoax!