psychedelic drugs and meditation

[armankhosro]

hi and greetings to everyone,

This is my first post, I am new to meditation but I feel that I'm good at it (just tried a few sittings). But now, I just want to know if I use psychedelics (DMT, LSD) now, does it harm my future efforts to meditation? Will it cause any long lasting effect on my meditation practice two years later?

Thanks in advance

[Nomad]

I think I am in love with this post.

[Inner Peace]

The answer to your question is irrelevant.

If you are wanting to take drugs, avoid them. This is simply a form of desire.  Meditate, label it, feel it, let it go, bring your focus back.

If you have already taken drugs, it is done and in the past.  Your concern is simply worry or anxienty. Meditate, label it, feel it, let it go, bring your focus back.

[Nomad]

Agreed.  The drugs aren't the problem, though.  The need to add to what is already there seems off.  It's like saying, "I ran a mile yesterday.  Maybe I should run 10 miles while on fire."  You are missing the benefit of the initial exercise;  You are looking for things to experience, instead of experiencing what is there.

Good luck on the journey.

[boe]

I've had my share of Psychedelic drugs in the past and i choose not to take them anymore.
I used to believe that they might help one to stay in a state of enlightenment forever,
e.g. the "high" never wears off.

I now don't believe this anymore.
It's possible to get high on the drugs but the high wears off.
Without a stable foundation you can't get high and just stay there, you're bound to fall.

Also, i view the mind as a muscle. It is better to train it progressively, rather than pushing it
to the limit in an extremely small amount of time. (which is what drugs do)
This probably avoids possible negative consequence that might result from the psychedelic drug use.

------------

If you get really good in meditation you will not need to use drugs because you will feel as good as when
you did on the drugs. If you are the kind of guy who can't surrender himself to the sober meditation,
like how some people can practice sober meditation for years and still make little advancement,
then you might be practicing the wrong kind of meditation for you personally.

If you don't get decent results, and notice definite progress in a "not so big amount of time"...
then something's not right.

I think one person might be better off with a different verbal explanation or meditation technique,
than the next person. I personally find that using autosuggestion (as taught in "Autogenic training") is the most easy and effective way to enter into the meditative state.

The state where i am really relaxed, body and mind relaxed. The state where i am aware of my thoughts and my whole body. Breath flowing smoothly. The state where i am not bounded by fear and aversion. I think this state is what practitioners of vipassana try to achieve, so I think I am am practicing vipassana  

[Morning Dew]

Boe my friend you seem to be brainwashing yourself

Drugs are easy! If its not tough it is not worth a thing!
Keep on sitting instead!

[Lokuttara]

If its not tough it is not worth a thing!
Keep on sitting instead!

This is something I sometimes question. After a recent sit with some other meditators, at the end one of the lads got up and said "It doesn't get any easier". I find this is common for some meditators. Talking about how hard it is, and how long the path is, and thus - implicitly - it takes so much time and effort.

What does this imply? Are we thinking too much about meditation? Is meditation some sort of obstacle that needs to be overcome? Is it a war that needs to be won? What psychological processes does one go through in order to make the decision that meditation is very difficult and it takes time to get good at it, and that they will keep on trying to get good even though right now they are having problems with it?

So what does all of this imply? What does it say about the way meditation is being taught? Has meditation become another chore that we must do everyday, to which there is some resistance? Can we add meditation to the "innumerable number of problems" we have, as Krishnamurti would put it?

Sorry, I hope I'm not going too far off topic.

[Morning Dew]

Hi Lokutara,
When i wrote what you quoted, i ment the drugs, or auto-suggestive CDs, or getting "attuned" or " paptised" etc... Is much easier (since our ego is a great escape artist) to go into than to sit in silence.
Those friends of yours are fortunate since they probably have little to no traumas to deal with. I (and many others) am based in fear. My personality is deformed. I experianced stuff in my childhood and war (bosnia) that i whish no one.
Some people you mention very likely had a decent upbringing without being forced as a kid to suck someone elses dirty c..k !

Also some of the guys going to those retreats probably find it safe meditating when surounded by others. Meditating alone i am sure can be different. Ask them!

Any way you seem to know it all mate! Dont you?

[Lokuttara]

Any way you seem to know it all mate! Dont you?

I apologise, but I think you're taking me up wrong somehow mate. Maybe the way I wrote the questions was not skillful, and instead of looking at my questions you have reacted with something else entirely, my question was simply about labelling of our personal egoic experience as good, bad, easy, hard, transcendant, and all those other things. The questions I've asked are for myself as much as other people on the same path.

[armankhosro]

thanks everyone who answered my question. But can I ask for a source, maybe someone that knows a lot more, which knows for sure that psychedelic drugs wont cause any problem later for my meditation. As for those who said I should start meditation now, I have to say, where I live now I couldn't find any teacher, and I heard doing it without any classes or teacher is wrong and maybe even dangerous, so for now I want to try some psychedelics. I had tried a few times and now I have a much better awareness about my body and found out quite a lot about my mind, don't know if its going to last though.

[Lokuttara]

If you have your heart set on getting into an altered state, then holotropic breathwork might be preferrable to taking external substances:
http://www.holotropic.com/

Why not try a 10-day Vipassana course, they take place all over the world: www.dhamma.org

[Morning Dew]

Lokuttara! Noted lots get lost in translation.

@ armankhosro! By using such drugs you will only miss a lot of info going on in your body. Drugs are an escape! Observe yourself as you are. Learn to calm your body by siting in silence and activate the bodies own happy hormones which will give you a deep calm state throughout the day.

You need no teacher my friend only in moment of weakness do we need others. No one can teach you to know your self. The conditioned self is your best teacher.
Calm your body by practising Shamatha. Observe the emotions and thoughts without clinging to them. The mindfulness which gets born in meditation will also enter into the everyday life.

In a case you realy need a teacher you can always use this forum as one

Remain mindful

[Matthew]

..... As for those who said I should start meditation now, I have to say, where I live now I couldn't find any teacher, and I heard doing it without any classes or teacher is wrong and maybe even dangerous, so for now I want to try some psychedelics. ......

This is really quite delusional of you. You seriously believe that experimenting with meditation is more dangerous than experimenting with psychedelic drugs?

Think again.

Warmly,

In the Dhamma,

Matthew

[armankhosro]

Why not try a 10-day Vipassana course, they take place all over the world: www.dhamma.org

thanks for the link Lokuttara, I found Vipassana meditation center in Iran, but it seems like they do not have classes anymore (or the page has not been updated since 2008), I will call them to know about it, although the location is still 250km away from my city, I will go for it if they have the classes.

This is really quite delusional of you. You seriously believe that experimenting with meditation is more dangerous than experimenting with psychedelic drugs?

maybe i have been misguided by some people I thought they know what they are talking about.
So you think it is safe and OK to try and practice meditation alone? (if i was unable to attend a class)

if yes, then what guide do you recommend, should I start meditaion by a video, a book? what do you recommend as the starting point?


thanks again everyone

[Lokuttara]

Ultimately you really should work with a teacher if at all possible.

But for now, there are books available freely online, such as this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=M2S-7-lWzHIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

[boe]

I had tried a few times and now I have a much better awareness about my body and found out quite a lot about my mind, don't know if its going to last though.

So you did psychedelics, you learned a lot,
but still u feel the need to do them again.

So your contentment/peak happiness didn't last. If it did, there would be no need to do them again.
That's what i meant with "the high doesn't last". Me, i just don't want to suffer, ever.

And being dependent on psychedelics to end suffering i didn't like.
I want to be free from suffering always 

[Matthew]

Why not try a 10-day Vipassana course, they take place all over the world: www.dhamma.org

thanks for the link Lokuttara, I found Vipassana meditation center in Iran, but it seems like they do not have classes anymore (or the page has not been updated since 2008), I will call them to know about it, although the location is still 250km away from my city, I will go for it if they have the classes.

This is really quite delusional of you. You seriously believe that experimenting with meditation is more dangerous than experimenting with psychedelic drugs?

maybe i have been misguided by some people I thought they know what they are talking about.
So you think it is safe and OK to try and practice meditation alone? (if i was unable to attend a class)

if yes, then what guide do you recommend, should I start meditaion by a video, a book? what do you recommend as the starting point?


thanks again everyone

Alone is best. Especially if you can go somewhere into the mountains or a forest. Follow your breath. Sit in a secluded place, Sit on a cushion if it helps with legs loosely crossed and spine supported and upright. Tuck in your chin a bit and lift your head gently.Relax your belly and chest. Breath in sensitive to the feeling of your body as you breath - focussing your attention on the whole body and relaxing the whole body. At the end of the natural breath you will breathe in - focus your attention on the body and relax the body. Keep going. When thoughts arise try not to follow them or push them away. Be a disinterested watcher as they fade away and return the attention to the sensation of the body as you breathe and relaxing the body. Let your mind calm peacefully. Start with 20 minutes once or twice a day and see how you get on. After you shower in the morning is good (I recommend stretching before you get out of bed for health sake btw). Evening not too close to dinner nor bedtime is ideal. Search the forum for meditation timer and you'll find a post with some mp3 timers in.

You have to travel the path alone in the end so why trouble yourself to go 250 clicks for something you can do at home.

As the Buddha would say, don't believe me, but try it and see if your reason agrees with it when you have experimented.

I definitely recommend this approach above the idea of books.

Warm regards,

Matthew

Ultimately you really should work with a teacher if at all possible.

But for now, there are books available freely online, such as this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=M2S-7-lWzHIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Morning Dew]

Ultimately you really should work with a teacher if at all possible.

I find our administrator Matthew (The Irreverent Buddhist) being a very good teacher, in my experiance that Is!

Here you can follow my path since the March 12th this year;
http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,711.105.html

Here is something I wrote to a friend on another forum, she asked me to explain her how to meditate;

Panic attacks and traumas are all ingrained in our mind, dont you agree?
As such they make our body release stress hormones making us feel even worse (fight-flight), right?
If such feelings persist for long enough time it can develope paranoia (in my case it did)

Learn to calm your body totaly so it stops releasing stress hormones and start releasing "happy" hormones instead :-)
At the same time while calming your body with each in and outbreath you will as all of us do, experiance all sorts of thoughts, emotions, sensations.
These distractions are the part of your conditioned ego-self which tend to separate the universe into desires and aversions and all that because of fear :-)
Do not get involved into the mind game but gently notice them and let them wash away on their own accord like the wave off of the beach. Gentlyturn back to calming your body with each in and out-breath.

Do not focus on anything, do not focus on your nose, nor your belly nor the body nor symbols nor reiki, nor angels or kundalini ... nothing :-) you hear me ;-)

To make sure you are not focusing on anything keep your eye lids closed but gently and bring your concious awareness into the eye balls and keep your calm yet relaxed awareness in there and stop the eye lids from moving. From this point you can sense all what is going on in your body and in your mind without getting involved into mind scenarios and ideas. If you get involved please return back to the eye balls, but not focusing just gently keeping your eye balls still and awake, not forcing a thing.

It is to be expacted that ego will throw all kinds of crap at you but be ready for it and keep relaxing your body, eye balls being part of that body of course.
Do not control your breathing. If your belly feels hard or stiff you are controling it. Please make sure you are breathing in then out and after the outbreath there is a few seconds natural pause before you breath in again OK :-)

Do not engage into this meditation intelectualy but actualy stay with everything that Is taking place and with compasion towards your conditioned self (do not hate it do not judge it do not analise it) keep calming your body which Is storing all that ego crap and is able to release it via calmness and mindfulness.

I tried meditating at diferent time intervals (10minutes to one hour) but for the body to actualy release the calming hormones (serotonin) takes (for me) about 35-40 minutes. Only after approx 35 minutes do I feel the deep calm taking place. This is an awake state of mind and thoughts kind of stay on the outside having very little importance to the concious me. The thoughts and emotions kind of became separate and do calm down on their own.
This deep relaxed feeling stays with me during the whole day :-)

With such feeling body has chance to re-balance itself and we are gaining mindfulnes, becoming more aware of who we realy are, what realy takes place in side of our conditioned self.
Suddenly I come to realise that this chatering self is not me at all.

I am not saying start sitting for 45 minutes at once :-) no. Start with as much as you can at first and work your way up to 45 minutes to an hour to reap the benefits of deep relaxation :-)
It took me seven month to get to this stage but I can tell it sure is worth it :-)

It is about being compasionate towards your conditioned self, calming your body, being mindful of all that is taking place in your mind without clinging to it or rejecting it.
Do not forgett keeping your eye balls still and every now and then if you get your self cought up in a mind scenario relax all your facial muscles and your shoulders. Keep your back streight.

I am only a PM away if you need to talk. Such mindful calm abiding meditation can bring up lots of emotional crap and it is good if you can have friends to talk to, write to :-) just to went a bit.

I hope you dont mind me writing this publicly since I feel other might also benefit from this info but I will aslo answer your PM tomorrow morning afeter my meditation session :-)

p.s. do not take this meditation as something fancy or special to do :-) instead see it as a mind hygiene :-) The same way you take time to shower or groom your hair so do take time to clense your mind via minfulness and relaxed body OK :-)

For best result do it every day. I prefer mornings. I get up earlier than my wife so not to get distracetd, but even those distraction do not matter anymore once the deep relaxation takes place. These days I can meditate while my wife vacuums the floor LoL

Remain relaxed, remain mindful

[armankhosro]

Alone is best. Especially if you can go somewhere into the mountains or a forest. Follow your breath. Sit in a secluded place, Sit on a cushion if it helps with legs loosely crossed and spine supported and upright. Tuck in your chin a bit and lift your head gently.Relax your belly and chest. Breath in sensitive to the feeling of your body as you breath - focussing your attention on the whole body and relaxing the whole body. At the end of the natural breath you will breathe in - focus your attention on the body and relax the body. Keep going. When thoughts arise try not to follow them or push them away. Be a disinterested watcher as they fade away and return the attention to the sensation of the body as you breathe and relaxing the body. Let your mind calm peacefully. Start with 20 minutes once or twice a day and see how you get on. After you shower in the morning is good (I recommend stretching before you get out of bed for health sake btw). Evening not too close to dinner nor bedtime is ideal. Search the forum for meditation timer and you'll find a post with some mp3 timers in.

You have to travel the path alone in the end so why trouble yourself to go 250 clicks for something you can do at home.

As the Buddha would say, don't believe me, but try it and see if your reason agrees with it when you have experimented.

I definitely recommend this approach above the idea of books.

Warm regards,

Matthew

Thank you for your reply. I agree with you. I will start doing it the way you recommended from tomorrow morning. Actually we will start meditating (alone/separately), as me (Arman) and my friend (Khosro) originally created this account and asked the question about psychedelics and decided that we should start meditating now. btw i have found the mp3 and downloaded it. Thanks again.

Ultimately you really should work with a teacher if at all possible.

I find our administrator Matthew (The Irreverent Buddhist) being a very good teacher, in my experiance that Is!

Here you can follow my path since the March 12th this year;
http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/topic,711.105.html

Here is something I wrote to a friend on another forum, she asked me to explain her how to meditate;

thank you, I've found the text interesting and it answered some of my questions before starting meditation.

[Matthew]

armankhosro,

Start gently with compassion for yourself. Do not feel guilt when you "get it wrong". Do not indulge in ego feeding when you "get it right". Just be with yourself without fabrication.

Never hesitate to ask if there is something that needs clarification.

It is good you have a friend to practice with. Alone is wonderful, alone with someone to share reflections with is even better.

Warmly, in the Dhamma,

Matthew