Equanimity, bliss and help with experiences.

[Alexanderjohn]

Hi this is my first post, I've been lurking for a while and this forum has given me a great deal of help but theres a few questions that I have found unanswered, apologies if it ends up a bit wordy.

I am wondering about the necessity of "achieving" bliss or just continuing with plain calm equanimity to vedanupassana?

To me it seems as though waiting for the bliss first is a form of grasping and as long as I do that it does not come. I have come to see anapana as calming and essential for samadhi but also a form of repression as all my issues return to a knot in my centre which only seems to loosen when approaching vedanupassana with equanimity. I have experienced periods of great bliss and great difficulty which I observe as a clear example of impermanence but my bliss periods often end up bringing this knot to the for. If I observe this equanimously through vedanupassana  I occasionally see it as my accumulation of kamma and many sensations (pleasant and unpleasant) seem to arise from within it and I may even see the events in my life that caused them, but these moments are rare and do not always happen with bliss, often I end up back with minimal sensations and the knot, but I do believe I feel it gradually loosening.

I am quite young and maybe I just do not fully appreciate this plain calm state as I have never really experienced any true suffering or complication for myself and have no real comparison to see how blissful it might actually be in this complicated world but I am really just wondering if I am wrong about anapana being a form of repression and whether it is vital to be "enshrined in bliss" before vedanupassana?

Another experience I have had is that occasionally, often meditating laying down, I end up with the feeling that I have no form, I observe sensation but with no legs or arms just a mass of formless something, parts of my body seem to expand and contract, being minute but heavy or large but light as air or both at the same time. Its really difficult to describe as maybe it is not experienced by my ego but does anyone know what this could be? Is it a delusional form of self hypnosis? I seem to no longer feel a room around me unless I think about it and its just empty nothingness.

Last thing! Everywhere I look within and around me everything I see are many sparkles of constantly moving black and white dots, for lack of better words. If I am to look at a surface and do not focus on anything in particular everything seems to merge into one colour with these sparkles. Its not distracting and is very subtle, it doesn't effect my vision in any way and seems another indicator of impermanence. Sometimes if I meditate with open eyes with dim light the room merges into one and I experience a great rush which causes me to grasp and its gone. Delusion?

These last to questions I have been trying to answer for a while now. Any thoughts will be deeply appreciated.
Btw by vedanupassana I mean body scanning and observing sensation throughout the body.

[Matthew]

Alexanderjohn,

Welcome to the forums.

Wanting bliss is a form of grasping. Knowing bliss will come if you practice properly and focussing on the practice not the outcomes is more useful.

Watching the breath in proper anapana - from the very start attending to all bodily sensations and calming the body on each in and out breath - will though lead you there. Unlike anapana focussed at the nose (which is a form of repression) it will not leave you with the knot in your centre but will also gently undo this as you are paying attention to body from the first moment.

There is no need to attain bliss but the Buddha was clear that the natural emergence of the various bliss states, understanding them and moving through them was an aid on the path and leads to a different kind of quality enlightenment.

Calm equanimity will transmogrify into bliss if your anapana practice does not block you from bodily sensation. The whole process is very natural, refined and subtle: simple yet profound.

Regarding different experiences and whether they are real, delusional, significant or otherwise: cling to nothing, i.e. see the emptiness in everything, the transience.

Matthew

[kidnovice]

Heck yeah. TIB's response said it so well. He put to words the "fine line" that is difficult to walk.

I especially liked this:

Wanting bliss is a form of grasping. Knowing bliss will come if you practice properly and focussing on the practice not the outcomes is more useful.

Personally, I find it helpful to think about the functions that bliss can play on the path (I would call this a part of right view). Reflecting on these functions can help you to cultivate a skillful relationship to it.

Here are a few positive functions that Thanissaro Bhikkhu points out (you can read the entire essay here)

(a) Learning to cultivate bliss leads to a deeper understanding of the way that the mind/body fabricates your reality. By learning to skillfully work with this process of fabrication, you will become better poised to eventually let it go. A great quote:  

"[You] really don't know clay until you become a potter and actually try to make something out of the clay... And it's the same with the mind: unless you actually try to make something out of the mind, try to get a mental state going and keep it going, you don't really know your own mind. You don't know the processes of cause and effect within the mind. There has to be a factor of actual participation in the process..."

(b) Bliss helps prepare the mind to more fully acknowledge those truths that are more difficult to accept and work with. A great quote:

"Still another reason why solid concentration is necessary for insight is that when discernment comes to the mind, the basic lesson it will teach you is that you've been stupid. You've held onto things even though deep down inside you should have known better. Now, try telling that to people when they're hungry and tired. They'll come right back with, "You're stupid, too," and that's the end of the discussion. Nothing gets accomplished. But if you talk to someone who has had a full meal and feels rested, you can broach all kinds of topics without risking a fight. It's the same with the mind. When it has been well fed with the rapture and ease coming from concentration, it's ready to learn. It can accept your criticisms without feeling threatened or abused."

(c) Learning to cultivate bliss can transform your relationship to the external world, and thereby allow for a quality of renunciation that is not merely "self-denying" or repressive. A great quote:

"Another advantage to this mindful, concentrated state is that as you feel more and more at home in it, you begin to realize that it's possible to have happiness and pleasure in life without depending on things outside of yourself — people, relationships, approval from others, or any of the issues that come from being part of the world. This realization helps pry loose your attachments to things outside."

Some other positive functions of bliss:


(d) It allows you to face your deepest and most primal forms of clinging. You've already noticed your attachment to it. So now you have the opportunity to work with it, and eventually let it go. This is where purification happens. Indeed, it can be extremely powerful when you find peace (equanimity/calm) in the absence of bliss, even after you've tasted its possibility.

(e) It provides stamina and can fuel effort, enabling the mind to push on toward deeper insights.


(f) Feelings of bliss can also be channeled into really "juicy" metta practice that can be quite transformative and healing.


With that said, there are some serious pitfalls to working with bliss. You've pointed to one: you keep wanting it. But there are other problems. In my opinion, these pitfalls are also valuable, in part because it is through overcoming them that the purification process deepens. Here are three:

(a) The party line of many western Theravadans is that the  bliss is addictive and fools people into thinking that they've gotten to the end, even when they haven't. Thus, the bliss-junkie stops practicing. Personally, I don't know about all that, but here is a related pitfall that I definitely see as true:

(b) It can lead to complacency. This is true for even low-level bliss. Its easy to become satisfied once you're comfortable, and become skilled at maintaining that comfort. Even though you know you're far from done with the path, you may not marshal the same degree of enthusiasm and discipline. After all, you're feeling pretty good, so whats the rush? Ironically, this pitfall doesn't just limit your progress in the dhamma, it also limits the depth of your bliss.

(c) In my own experience, the more intense the bliss, the more prone I am to exaggerated thinking, and relatedly, self-aggrandizing thought-patterns. Of course, working with this is part of the purification process, but its no small issue. It can really bring about self-righteousness and over-confidence in practitioners.

(d) Learning to skillfully cultivate joy can be a wonderful thing because it allows your meditation practice to become something of a "safe-harbor." But this is a double-edged sword. If you ever want to go anywhere, you've gotta leave the harbor sometime... even though the high-seas can be rocky.

I hope these ideas help.

With metta,
KN

[kidnovice]

Oh, and as to all the "experiences" you described, they sound quite "cool."  But you need to decide if that's all they are. Are they "trippy" because you've seen the bizarre ways that the mind fabricates your reality? If so, fine.

Beyond that, only you can decide if the experience has any more meaning. In the early years of my practice, I had many experiences similar to the ones you've described. Personally, I found that most of them left me no better off afterward. And that is the real benchmark. Did your experience leave you with positive qualities that extended into your life? Did it help you be calmer, kinder, gentler, more humble, more forgiving, or more loving? Did it heal you in some way?

If yes, be grateful, and then determine whether or not you can skillfully cultivate that experience again, or find other ways to develop those same positive qualities.

If not, then you've simply had a trippy experience.  Accept it, and move on!  

Best of luck to you on the path,
KN

[Matthew]

..... that is the real benchmark. Did your experience leave you with positive qualities that extended into your life? Did it help you be calmer, kinder, gentler, more humble, more forgiving, or more loving? Did it heal you in some way? .....

The acid test, not the trippy kind, of all practice - in a nutshell.

[Alexanderjohn]

Its funny how I've been on this forum for a while and not yet posted, now I have replies I feel like I'm talking to celebrities.
Really appreciate the responses, they have helped greatly. I keep starting new sentences with new questions but I know I'm really looking for intellectual gain to feed this hungry ego so I'm off to the cushion instead.

Metta,
Alex.