Hello mik1e, a discussion on research into meditation is a good topic, but, as a social scientist (anthropologist) who studies meditation, I will have to say there is no Scientific root for enlightenment, because western science is all about measuring, exploring, defining and predicting the physical universe; whereas enlightenment is of a spiritual dimension.
Yes, it is true that medical doctors and neurologists have been engaged in the study of meditation; however, most of that research has been organized toward promoting a religion, teacher or method, so that research has been mostly self-serving and has contributed little to our understanding of the subject. If, for instance, a scientist were to focus his or her study on Shamatha-Vipassana only, then that research would be far too narrow a focus to result in much meaningful research.
There is also the problem that science does not really have a place for personal observation .. whilst the meditative path is centred around this.
Now secret services in different countries actively investigate psychic phenomena to prepare and use psychics for intelligence service and influencing necessary politics or businessmen. This is very pity, since similar (not necessary the same) methods can be used for quick achieving of the enlightenment and changing the world in which we live.
"Mindfulness meditation, in my view, forces you to learn to pay attention to automatic processes. Breathing is automatic - you don`t need to think to breathe. Walking is automatic once you`ve learned to do it, you don`t need to think about taking steps in order to walk. [...] But in these practices, by making you focus on it, you`re developing conciousness of automatic activity. In order to do that, you`re building new neural connections that aren`t there. My theory [...]* is that these new neural connections that you constructed from monitoring breathing, eating and walking, will allow you to monitor the arousal of emotional impulses, which is also automatic. If you made automatic functioning conscious, then you will be conscious of other automatic [things]."(* presented in the book "Emotions Revealed")
Just a few thoughts. 1) There might not be a subtle world. I hear a lot of talk about the subtle world, however I have not seen, heard or experienced anything that leads me to believe that there is such a world.
1) There is a Subtle world; this one!
2) Science is based on the scientific method; for it to study consciousness (much less enlightenment) it has to be able to isolate it from all other influences. If someone manages to do that, then studying it will be the last thing on their mind, they will be enlightened.
3) We know something special is going on, and so do good scientist. Anyone who calls themselves a scientist without having their mind blown everyday by the wonder of this existence is just collecting titles and letters after their name. Even Louis Armstrong knew it was wonder-ful.
4) Let me share something about brains I know for sure; they don't work without bodies. And bodies don't work without food, air, and water. And these three things need an environment to exist in. And that environment most definitely keeps on existing for as far as we can see, even when observed with the best instruments science has built. It really is a simple experiment, though I'm not volunteering; Take a brain out of a body, put it on the bench and see if it is still alive, let alone conscious. The results give you your answer; no it isn't all in the brain.
Quote from: lente on Wednesday 13 July 2011, 09:13 PMJust a few thoughts. 1) There might not be a subtle world. I hear a lot of talk about the subtle world, however I have not seen, heard or experienced anything that leads me to believe that there is such a world. Surely anything that could be seen, heard or experienced about such a world would be subtle, would it not?Don't worry about scientists. They have plenty to do with stopping climate change and inventing useful devices. Meditation is a first-person science.
Just a few thoughts. ...6) "Now secret services in different countries actively investigate psychic phenomena to prepare and use psychics for intelligence service and influencing necessary politics or businessmen." I don't believe any of this. Big claims need big evidence. What is the evidence for this?
.....The book examines connections between paranormal military programs and psychological techniques being used for interrogation in the War on Terror. The book traces the evolution of these covert activities over the past three decades, and sees how they are alive today within U.S. Homeland Security and the Iraq War. It examines the use of the theme tune to Barney & Friends on Iraqi prisoners-of-war, the smuggling of a hundred de-bleated goats into the Special Forces command center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and the connection between the U.S. military and the mass-suicide of members of the Heaven's Gate cult in San Diego.[2][edit]TV documentaryThe book accompanies a three-part TV series broadcast on Channel 4 in Britain, Crazy Rulers of the World. The three parts were titled "The Men Who Stare at Goats", "Funny Torture" and "Psychic Footsoldiers" respectively. The idea of the project was to explore "the apparent madness at the heart of U.S. military intelligence." The series discusses and includes members of Psychological operations, First Earth Battalion, and also discusses Project MKULTRA and Frank Olson, including interviews with his son, Eric Olson. .....
....It worries me that a lot people who practice meditation and/or call themselves spiritual are so dismissive of science, but are very positive about things that very often have no credible evidence to support them.
I think what Jeeprs is pointing to is not unrealistic ... we have eyes to see, ears to hear, nose to smell, taste-buds to taste and sense of touch to feel, as well as brain/mind to perceive and process these sensory inputs (and it's own machinations). We can't see some parts of the light spectrum other animals see because evolution did not make them useful to us. As you reprogram the brain through decluttering all the crap ... who knows what you might perceive?
1) Why indeed. Why not call it; The Amazing Stuff That Just Keeps Happening All The Time Without Us Having Any Idea How. Probably a bit long, but quite more descriptive than "World". It is true that many people get lost in daydreaming about alternate realities and assert all types of things which are not otherwise a part of their direct experience. BUT, when something does become part of your direct experience, all bets are off on what it means. One person sees an angel, another a ufo, and another put's it all down to too much pizza. Other people have there minds boggled by big numbers and small things.
2) Without a doubt the Bodymind will continue to be studied and probed for a long time to come. Still, enlightenment will never be available in a pill.Have you ever read a text that goes into depth on neurotransmitters? I mean the real research papers, not the science magazine tripe? Even if they can get to the bottom of consciousness, we are talking about a report exponentially bigger than these 'small' things like enzymes, and peptides! Even in summarised form it will be all but useless to use anyway; words on a screen or piece of paper. Like Douglas Adams Deepthot computers answer of '42', perfectly understandable yet still meaningless.
4) It may be impractical, but that is setting up a condition that reality may not be able to meet. It's like forgetting to carry the one, or only going to 5 decimal places, it must take into account everything that effects it or is a flawed conclusion.
Here is a question for you; Electricity, does it come from a power point? we would agree that only small children would say so. It is not independent of the electricity grid, the generators, the fuel for the generators, the conditions that created the fuel.
As you reprogram the brain through decluttering all the crap ... who knows what you might perceive?
QuoteI think what Jeeprs is pointing to is not unrealistic ... we have eyes to see, ears to hear, nose to smell, taste-buds to taste and sense of touch to feel, as well as brain/mind to perceive and process these sensory inputs (and it's own machinations). We can't see some parts of the light spectrum other animals see because evolution did not make them useful to us. As you reprogram the brain through decluttering all the crap ... who knows what you might perceive?If you mean: A world created by the brain, like a dream or vision. Than I would agree.
It worries me that a lot people who practice meditation and/or call themselves spiritual are so dismissive of science,
For the sake of instant coffee?
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