Idea with voice recorder

[Maysun]

Since a few days I take my voicerecorder and express all the thoughts and sensations especially thoughts into it for about 20 minutes. Then I listen back to it as though it is someone else, which is quite funny and insightful.

I was wondering if you think this will help me to get more conscious about the workings of my mind and can be a sort of meditation. I am also interested whether any of you have tried something similar and what the experience was like?

[Vivek]

The problem with thoughts is that we can get lost in the content. Trying to analyze the content of our thoughts, has little benefit, at least from the perspective of Vipassana. I am not saying that it won't help you. It just seems more effort with little results. The best thing is to fall back to either the breath or the natural body sensations in the moment. Such self-observation need not be limited to on the cushion, but can be done off-cushion as well.

[Matthew]

Breathe, calm, relax. If you learn something by this try it for a while. Just don't replace your practice with it completely.

[frepie]

I agree with Vivek. Analyzing thoughts and understanding their meaning can be insightful but it represent a lot of work for little benefits, much like classic analytic psychology (Freudian). You try to understand a very complex puzzle while meditation allow you to just ignore those toxic thoughts and attain the desired goal much more easily.

[Maysun]

Well

I don´t seem to be analysing anything while I am expressing my thoughts while recording. It seems to be a tool that makes my thoughts more visible because I ´tell´ them (and can listen back to them).
I find it hard to observe thoughts in my head as they come along. It is like doing calculation from the head, it is way easier if you can see the figures on paper. Another example: reading aloud. It helps you to focus on the words and not get distracted. (of course you can focus on the sound of your voice in stead but that is usually not what happens)

:-)

Where do you think the analysing bit comes in?
+ Has anyone ever tried something like this?

[Maysun]

Oh by the way, another thing I´ve noticed: I think the best would be to notice body sensations and stuff but the fact is that my mind is extremely active and full of thoughts. If I try to focus on body sensations while I am restless, it soon gets forced in stead of gentle and then I get more restless. If I focus on the thoughts in stead because that is where my mind naturally leads me to, there is less force and I am still noticing what happens, however obviously not feeling too much in my body.

It seems to me whenever force comes into the picture I´m offtrack and will not get back to whatever body sensation or breath is going on.

Another related example: most meditators say it is best to sit with a straight posture, but if I go sit into a straight posture immediately force pops up, like the thought to force myself to sit straight. If I then try to focus on the breath, there will be absolutely no focus on the breath except the desire to sit differently. So I can then only focus on the force feeling which is highly uncomfortable. That is an option, however if I do not try and force myself to sit straight but I allow myself to do whatever practice in whatever posture I prefer, in other words in a context that will facilitate my practice, then it is easier to focus on whatever was the focus point such as breath. I already have tons of negative thoughts myself to focus on or deal with, so why make it worse by sitting straight?

I think it is more important to find a way that facilitates/helps you to become aware, in stead of trying to do it right. Obviously the idea of sitting with a straight back is that it is facilitating you, and I think it might indeed, but maybe only for people who do not find it too hard to sit straight or are further on their way.

It is a bit like trying to do running. Maybe for someone else it is OK to start with 2 minutes of it, but my condition may be so bad that I can only do half a minute.

As for voice recording, I think if you start focusing on the sound of your voice, well even that can be meditation because I think the object is not that important, it is the quality of attention that is. But I don´t seem to get lost in content, I am only noticing the thoughts passing by more visibly.

So much for voice recording and meditating with a straight back.
Now I´ve noticed my tendency to ´defend myself´ but I have to say it is not too strong and I found some more clarity through the writing.

[Andrew]

Hi Maysun.

I did a similar thing recently to get some thoughts straight and would listen to it back sometimes of remind myself of what I was trying to achieve, I also found the whole process of recording it insightful.

[Matthew]

Dear Maysun,

Oh by the way, another thing I´ve noticed: I think the best would be to notice body sensations and stuff but the fact is that my mind is extremely active and full of thoughts.

By focussing specifically on the body sensations that arise as you breathe and calming/relaxing the body as you breathe, a space is created where the mind can gently slow down from it's habituated race with itself.

That is exactly why we focus on the body sensations of breathing. This tiger mind needs gently bringing into line, so it becomes your servant and not your master. By focussing the mind on the bodily sensations of breathing and simultaneously calming the body you will find that your mind calms eventually.

If all else fails, it can help, in the beginning, to count silently as you breathe - IN (one) OUT (one) IN (two) OUT (two) etc ... if you find thoughts intruding you just start at one again - with no guilt or self-recrimination. If you get to ten you go back to one. This way the mind is a bit more involved in the meditation however counting is best used as a crutch to kick start the practice. When you can easily get to ten a few times without a thought it's time to drop it for sure.

If I try to focus on body sensations while I am restless, it soon gets forced in stead of gentle and then I get more restless.

The key here is to remember to physically relax and experience the relaxation with every in and out breath - so important. FEEL IT. Feel the bodily sensations of breathing. And relax, relax, relax.

If I focus on the thoughts in stead because that is where my mind naturally leads me to, there is less force and I am still noticing what happens, however obviously not feeling too much in my body.

This disembodiment is one of the things that will end when you learn to ride this horse of mindfulness practice. It is a large part of the problems we face. Individually and collectively.

And ... of course the mind is drawn to itself ! It has to feed itself constantly to avoid change !

It seems to me whenever force comes into the picture I´m offtrack and will not get back to whatever body sensation or breath is going on.

Indeed force is opposite to meditation. Some resolve to keep up practice is essential but the whole thing needs to be an act of self acceptance from start to end. Force is contrary top that and likely to lead to confining awareness in a way that is not the most positive.

http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php/page,10.html

Meditation of calm abiding ... practice is designed to bring your body and mind into full  harmony, to quieten the mind naturally over time, through repeated practice and not using any kind of force, and to improve and deepen your level of concentration.

Another related example: most meditators say it is best to sit with a straight posture, but if I go sit into a straight posture immediately force pops up, like the thought to force myself to sit straight. If I then try to focus on the breath, there will be absolutely no focus on the breath except the desire to sit differently. So I can then only focus on the force feeling which is highly uncomfortable. That is an option, however if I do not try and force myself to sit straight but I allow myself to do whatever practice in whatever posture I prefer, in other words in a context that will facilitate my practice, then it is easier to focus on whatever was the focus point such as breath. I already have tons of negative thoughts myself to focus on or deal with, so why make it worse by sitting straight?

Mindfulness can be practiced sitting, standing, walking, laying down, on the bus, when talking to the postman - or the annoying neighbours .... (especially).

You're right about the back - most people due to modern living do not have straight strong backs but stoop and suffer some kind of habitual mal-posture that makes sitting upright difficult, painful or impossible. It is really worth persisting and also trying different ways to sit - such as in a dining chair or other chair that lets you sit with your thighs parallel to the floor and if you can without using the back of the chair. If not use the back of the chair for a while but also use some of those back muscles to get them going. Swimming is also very good. Walking meditation, concentrating on the physical sensations of walking will help too.

I think it is more important to find a way that facilitates/helps you to become aware, in stead of trying to do it right. Obviously the idea of sitting with a straight back is that it is facilitating you, and I think it might indeed, but maybe only for people who do not find it too hard to sit straight or are further on their way.

Don't give up on "doing it right" yet be also realistic. Start where you are, in a way that allows you to relax and improve concentration through undertaking the practice. Try to strengthen your back muscles, including physical exercise such as swimming.

It is a bit like trying to do running. Maybe for someone else it is OK to start with 2 minutes of it, but my condition may be so bad that I can only do half a minute.

So do the half a minute and resolve to work on doing a little more, building slowly, and doing whatever it takes to get you there. Just keep it balanced and don't think too much about it all.

As for voice recording, I think if you start focusing on the sound of your voice, well even that can be meditation because I think the object is not that important, it is the quality of attention that is. But I don´t seem to get lost in content, I am only noticing the thoughts passing by more visibly.

Anything can be an object of meditation. Everything can. If you reach 24/7 mindfulness that quality will be there in all you do.

So much for voice recording and meditating with a straight back.
Now I´ve noticed my tendency to ´defend myself´ but I have to say it is not too strong and I found some more clarity through the writing.

In my experience journalling is a powerful tool alongside meditation. Voice recording is a way of journalling though personally I find having a dedicated journal book allows me to keep track of realisations, ups and downs and etc, etc, etc.

Whatever you do try to let the understanding seep in deep and slow and relaxed. There is no way to include the words relax or relaxed enough in such a discussion. It is missed by many - and of course, it is the opposite of force.

Kind regards,

Matthew

[Cilla]

HI Maysun

Its obvious to me that you need to work with a teacher for a while. A teacher can help you find the right posture for you. Even if you were going to sit in the lotus position on cushions, there are ways to do so that it is more comfortable and that you wouldn't feel you were forcing yourself. For instance your backside should be three inches above your feet. Having the backside a bit higher mitigates against the tendency to arise in the upper back. There are all sorts of little discomforts that arise from a wrong posture or sitting position which can be quickly remedied when you ask a teacher how to sit better or tell you've got pain or discomfort somewhere.


I think that given what you said about your mind in another thread and this one, that meditating on your bodily sensations would be much better for you. It would be good for you to a goenka retreat or another retreat to get you started off in a better way. You sound like you are really struggling as you are probably not going about any of it in the best way. Being able to ask a teacher on a retreat would resolve all these problems very quickly i'd suggest. On a goenka retreat you get the option to talk to the teacher every day and raise your issues however big or tiny.

Given your obsessive mind, you should not be focussing on thoughts. Your thoughts are your main problem. In a goenka retreat you spend three days focussing on the breath and have no outside stimulus from anywhere so the mind starts to settle down. On any retreat the mind would have more opporutnity to settle down and become quieter. Only on the fourth day do you start to watch your bodily sensations. Watching your sensations does not involve watching your thoughts and it should be easy enough to nudge your mind of any wanderings its likely to do.

As stated in that thread, tape recording yoru thoughts and then analysing them may be helpful but it is not like meditation. If you have trouble observing your thoughts (which is not actually a technique in mindfulness if i understand it correctly)then you shouldn't try to do it.

The four foundations of mindfulness  are mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of sensatations, mindfulness of feelings and mindfulness of mental states (which are i think emotions). So in that list is not thoughts. Buddhism distrust thoughts. Buddhist meditation tries to train the mind to stop paying attention to our thoughts. Just observing is not thinking. We don't need to analyse and if we do analyse anything it seems to be a pretty simple form of analysis eg is it a short or long breath?

If you find it helpful to record your thoughts, do it as a completely separate practice but not the same as meditation.

You don't have to watch your thoughts in order to train your intentions i think. If you develop your awareness to such an extent, your intentions will be positive anyway.

But above learn properly from a teacher and try to stick with one practice and develop it. People often say it doesn't matter which one of several methods you follow, many of them do work but you just have to practice with the one and develop your skill correctly.

On the business of relaxing, maybe you could check out Alan WAllace who is a renowned tibetan teacher. My local tibetan nun has just done a retreat with him in thailand and said it was fabulous. He also recommends lying down meditation for westerners because he says we need to learn to relax. I think if someone is a natural worrier and has anxiety issues, then maybe you need to work on learning how to relax first before going into more difficult techniques.

There might be some contradictions in here but i'm just trying to give you a few ideas.

[Cilla]

http://blog.unlearningmeditation.com/2010/11/27/recollective-awareness--mindfulness.aspx

Maysun, this blog talks about mindfulness and why observing thoughts should not be part of it. I think this will clarify things for you if you are still reading here.

[Andrew]

Cilla, I think you need to re-read the blog, he make the exact opposite point.

Being aware of one’s thoughts through the allowing of thinking is not an optimal experience. In fact, it is rather degrading. You get dragged into the muck. Well, at least it looks and feels like muck, and you may feel more down than up while going through it, but it is your mind after all. It may well be that non-optimal (by that I mean, “non-idealized”) awareness does not look and feel like anything special—it doesn’t have such concepts as “balanced acceptance,” “non-judgment,” or “non-clinging” attached to it. But it may have a hint of curiosity, a touch of playfulness, a certain level of self-honest seriousness, and an emerging willingness to be open to what one would normally have avoided.

He doesn't express himself that clearly (he uses the word optimal in a weird way- the first line should use  'idealised' which he later uses)- but I think the last line clear it up somewhat.

[Cilla]

Hm what i think he is saying is that his way of mindfulness is to get invovled in he thinking to get mucky but

but.. he notes (with a great deal more clarity) that getting invovled in the thoughts is not what mindfulness is about and he notes that it leads you astray from mindfulness.

If you want to know how to do mindfulness, there's a thing on the plum village website of how the monks and nuns practice mindfulness through the course of their day.

Buddhism is against thinking about our thoughts in meditation and mindfulness. Buddhism distrusts thought. Buddhism tries to help us stop thinking so much. Meditation is about creating mental space (from thought) and mindfulness is about observing ourselves.

[Andrew]

..it may have a hint of curiosity, a touch of playfulness, a certain level of self-honest seriousness, and an emerging willingness to be open to what one would normally have avoided.

I like this bit.