Is God Satan? Is Satan God?

[Morning Dew]

Yes I too have a feeling that "God" is the Ego, the Self, The Satan, the Devider, the Experiencer, the one who gives birth to phenomena, the creator of the illusion.

I hope im not insulting anyone. Just expressing my current feeling.

May we all see passed the wall of ignorance n greed

[Andrew]

Spinoza is the one who truly cracked the God nut wide open 300 odd years ago. Reading his book and Douglas Adams  'Dark Tea Time of the Soul' side by side was a satori moment a few years back.

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/spinoza01.htm

[Jeeprs]

Yes I too have a feeling that "God" is the Ego, the Self, The Satan, the Devider, the Experiencer, the one who gives birth to phenomena, the creator of the illusion.

equating God with Satan might be an indicator of delusional ideation, don't you think? Certainly Buddhism does not require belief in God or Gods, and Buddhists don't look to God for salvation. But in those many spiritual paths that do, God is the source of all good and of life. So by all means, don't use the term or refer to it at all, but if you are going to, it is important to think straight about it.

[Morning Dew]

God is good vs Satan is Evil
Yin-Yang
Therefore two sides of the same coin.
Satan is Gods creation. Therefore God is Satan

No shame in admiting that

Both God and Satan came out of Void.

God and Satan are an Idea and therefore a HUGE pile of Dung

God is the source of all good and of life.

Did you actualy percieve this? I guess not.
There is life and there is death. If God is the one who brings Birth to phenomena and Satan the one who brings Death than again both are the same coin just two sides of it. One causes the other. Both are Ideas (dangerous ideas as wars do prove).

don't use the term or refer to it at all, but if you are going to, it is important to think straight about it

Im in the Dark Night dealing with both God & Satan and their feet smell bad. Im in their actual presence and they both stink.
Why are you warning me Jeepers? What is gonna happen if i continue to use the term and refer to "Him"?
Are you saying that its ok to refer to Satan but not to God?

F..k the God which does not allow to be spoken of
Upset by now?
Good!
Now keep noting those upset sensations and look into the Three Characteristics of all phenomena incl. God

May you be free from suffering

[Andrew]

Satan is Gods creation. Therefore God is Satan

Nearly.

Satan is Gods creation and thus his servant. Satan is made out of God but is not God. Satan has no self!

This is interesting though;

I hope im not insulting anyone.

then;

F..k the God which does not allow to be spoken of
Upset by now?
Good!

hmm, interesting don't you think?

Lets see it again;

I hope im not insulting anyone.

then

F..k the God which does not allow to be spoken of
Upset by now?
Good!

"Offending people" is not a job that needs you to pitch in with Dusko, we have an entire planet full of people already doing a great job at it.

Watch your own sensations, and don't create karma you don't want to deal with, especially now.

love

Andrew

[Morning Dew]

Ha haha lol

Who is offending anyone?

Andy you just said in the other thread there is no self, no jeeprs, no dusko no andy, therefore no god and no satan.
There is just writing, typing, thoughts, stuff ... No self to be found. Who is this offender you speak of??

You are being funny now

Your sinner friend Dusko (who?)

[Andrew]

If we are quoting me then i also said elsewhere that 'no self' is the same as being 'one with god'.

Absolute responsibility, no self. One hand clapping....try it.

(Now I'm being funny)

A

[Jeeprs]

I am not 'warning you' Dusko, It is simply a matter of right speech, which is as important as any other aspect of the path.

Ultimately, it is true there is no self, no jeeprs, no dusko, no andy, therefore no god and no satan, but while we live in the world of appearance and interact with others, these are all perfectly real. It is said that, like a snake, the teaching of emptiness has to be grasped correctly, otherwise the consequences can be fatal. It takes skill to grasp it, and I'm not seeing that. 

[Morning Dew]

Sure

[Jeeprs]

I try to make intelligent comments, and look what happens.

I believe that 'right speech' is important. I also believe you don't understand a lot of what you are actually saying. I have taken 30 years to study these teachings, and they do take a lot of work and diligent effort to understand. From what you write, I don't see much understanding of these higher teachings you refer to. You have to walk before you can run.

I don't see any point in insulting other people's religious feelings and  writing whatever comes into your head. It won't help your practice in the least. What I write here, I try and make useful, sincere and honest. If you would rather I didn't continue, it is no skin off my nose.

[Morning Dew]

I have as much right to spit at the idea of God as you have the right to praise it no?
it would be as ridiculous for me to tell you not to insult me by praising that huge pile of dung we call god haha ha lol
Anyway, im still waiting for some answers
Nothing personal here. You are simply reacting emotionaly. You suit your ego Jeeprs. You are very likely a victim to intelectualising.

God is good vs Satan is Evil
Yin-Yang
Therefore two sides of the same coin.
Satan is Gods creation. Therefore God is Satan

No shame in admiting that

Both God and Satan came out of Void.

God and Satan are an Idea and therefore a HUGE pile of Dung

God is the source of all good and of life.

Did you actualy percieve this? I guess not.
There is life and there is death. If God is the one who brings Birth to phenomena and Satan the one who brings Death than again both are the same coin just two sides of it. One causes the other. Both are Ideas (dangerous ideas as wars do prove).

don't use the term or refer to it at all, but if you are going to, it is important to think straight about it

Im in the Dark Night dealing with both God & Satan and their feet smell bad. Im in their actual presence and they both stink.
Why are you warning me Jeepers? What is gonna happen if i continue to use the term and refer to "Him"?
Are you saying that its ok to refer to Satan but not to God?

F..k the God which does not allow to be spoken of
Upset by now?
Good!
Now keep noting those upset sensations and look into the Three Characteristics of all phenomena incl. God

May you be free from suffering

[Vivek]

Dusko, buddy, let's be more considerate to our fellow members' individual backgrounds, feelings and beliefs. I agree that you have every right to spit at the idea of God, but wouldn't it be nice to not use it in contexts where it is clearly proving unhelpful and even hurtful? I appreciate that you are trying to point at the investigation of Three Marks in and through your arguments, but we can see that it is tending more towards unskillful speech and hurting others, isn't it? So, let's drop it here, shall we?    

[Morning Dew]

even hurtful?

Who is being hurt? I still didnt get the answer. I will drop it once Vipassana practitioners around here stop idetifying with such crap as me saying F..k God

Jeeprs you could have chosen to laugh with me but instead you chose to be hurt. Im not sure i want to practice that practice you have for 30 years. This time i will not add a smiley but rather

Shame realy

[Morning Dew]

I try to make intelligent comments, and look what happens.

Iv got some good news and some bad news 

god is dead

 
 
 

[Masauwu]

Awesome clip. I don`t think there`s a thread subject who flared more spirits than the "god" one, on all the forums i`ve ever visited (mostly not related to meditation). This simple 3 letter word proabably means thousands of different things depending on everyone`s conceptions and conditioning. Why react defensively when someone has an opposed idea about that word, holding it dearly like it`s part of you...

Defend the sense habit of self from all direct or imagined attacks against it - or use this perception of the inner conflict to see into and past this identification? We all have this choice on the table.

[Matthew]

....
I believe that 'right speech' is important.

It's helpful yet skilful means sometimes means that something you consider to be wrong speech may be the opposite.

I also believe you don't understand a lot of what you are actually saying.

Having just spent three days with Dusko, and as he has admitted widely he is in Dark night stages, My suspicion is that sometimes this is true. However he has developed a deeper understanding of Dhamma than many who ...

have taken 30 years to study these teachings, and they do take a lot of work and diligent effort to understand. From what you write, I don't see much understanding of these higher teachings you refer to. You have to walk before you can run.

The only problem with this is that there were people in the Buddha's Sangha who got enlightened in under a week and several thousand fully enlightened members by his death. It just proves that with tradition we are doing something terribly mistaken.

I don't see any point in insulting other people's religious feelings and  writing whatever comes into your head. It won't help your practice in the least. What I write here, I try and make useful, sincere and honest. If you would rather I didn't continue, it is no skin off my nose.

Jeeprs, no one wants you to leave. If they do that's their bad luck as I for one hope you will go nowhere. Your contributions are welcomed, yet having spent thirty years studying this stuff, you must also have developed compassion for the ignorant and misguided. Your post comes over as a little terse and angry. Additionally I am surprised that you are continuing to gove conceptual labels to feelings and perceptions arising in meditation and solidifying them so much. As you admit there is an imbalance between your intellectual bent and your experiential knowledge gained through practice.

As much as Dusko has probably less knowledge than you of some of the concepts I can tell you he is a most serious student of the living Dhamma and if he comes over as not revering that which you revere, even insulting it, perhaps it is time to spend more time sitting and less pondering: More experiencing, less thinking?

Just my take on this complex interaction.

Be well,

Matthew

[Andrew]

Dusko your complete ignorance of how theology co-responds between traditions is plainly obvious.

Matthew your own knowledge is quite lacking it would seem as well.

7 billion people on the planet most of whom 'believe' in god and you honestly think slagging off the "idea" of God is a good thing? 

Skillful speech would be laying out paths for those lost in dead end theologies to find there way to the truth, yes?

Or is the truth now the special exclusive domain of Dusko and all others should be quiet while we watch him create streams of 'dhamma' for us to bath in?

Be quiet Dusko for a week and see how much better everything becomes. The more you fight it, the more you will have to fight.
 
It is just embarrassing to watch the stream of crap being justified under "Dark Night" for months on end. Embarrassing to who? Not me, but there arises the idea that such a dedicated student of 'dhamma' would have more of a clue by now what the stakes truly are for himself and those watching his dramatic story.

Dusko, you would have been out of the Dark Night (if that actually is what it is) a long time ago if you could hold your tongue, or in this case your fingers.

The more crap you generate the more you are going to have to work through.

Be quiet mate, and get over this stage before you indeed become the worlds leading expert on staying stuck in the Knowledge of Suffering.

If you are of the opinion that this is me being upset because you mentioned God, you really have no idea.

love to all
A

[Masauwu]

If you are of the opinion that this is me being upset because you mentioned God, you really have no idea.

Then this is you being upset for what cause?

The way i see it, this was never about theology or gods. Dusko was trying to point out (ok maybe not in the politically correct way) some attachment to one`s views and convictions. If a meditation practitioner finds himself insulted when faced with opposing views and convictions, then said meditator surely is having a bit of a flaw in his training? You can choose to let it pass because it would upset him, or try to show him the flaw so he can correct it. I don`t know about you, but i would want to be told about it.

Just ask yourselves, would you have reacted the same if instead of god the subject was your favorite car brand or fruit? And why?

[littlegrape]

I get the feeling this thread will help no one's practice in any way shape or form.

[littlegrape]

HALLELUJAH , (shrek song) (The video's owner prevents external embedding)



Yes maybe it is all forms of the Tao to us, and beyond those forms is the Void.  In the Bhagavad-Gita, Vishnu ( the God you're talking about, the creator, the destroyer ) is said to have vishvarupa, universal form, which is supposed to be beyond human understanding and which I don't think is likely to be a pile of dung like all the other forms are.

[Andrew]

If a meditation practitioner finds himself insulted when faced with opposing views and convictions, then said meditator surely is having a bit of a flaw in his training?

You are 100% correct if that was the case for me mate.  i don't think insults are the reason for this discussion though. As far as I can tell no one (and I'm not going all 'no self' here) has insulted anyone. I would simply like to see my mate Dusko walk cleanly through this dark night stuff (if that is what it is).

Matthews advice of 'listening to the story' is very sound. It reminds me of when I tell my kids to go to bed halfway through a movie. They have already been up 30 mins too long, and the plot of the storyline obviously shows that there is a lot of movie left to watch. The howls of protest shake the walls!

"Dad, it's nearly over!"

Those in Dark Night simply need to resolve the 'I' story. Forgive those who hurt them, get forgiveness if needed. If they can't forgive then at least release the people from their thoughts of revenge. Resolve the plot of the story if you have too. Sometimes people need to forgive God.

Resolve it, let it go. the more you fight the longer the story drags out. Some speculate (have experienced?) that that story can stretch hundreds of lifetimes. That sounds like a movie that needs some serious editing!

Lord of the Dark Night. The directors extended, stretched, re-run over and over and over again Edition!

We are not talking about the 'thread title' here any more than we have been in dozens of threads, we are meditators and i see that this what is happening;

"As iron sharpens iron, so a friend sharpens a friend." Proverbs 27:17 (from another meditator along time ago!)



 

[Matthew]

...

Matthew your own knowledge is quite lacking it would seem as well.

7 billion people on the planet most of whom 'believe' in god and you honestly think slagging off the "idea" of God is a good thing?  ...

No.

It seems to me that beliefs don't have much value.

[Matthew]

...

Matthews advice of 'listening to the story' is very sound. ....

Never cared for knowledge .. another penny in the bank for good ol' wisdom.

[Andrew]

...

Matthew your own knowledge is quite lacking it would seem as well.

7 billion people on the planet most of whom 'believe' in god and you honestly think slagging off the "idea" of God is a good thing?  ...

No.

It seems to me that beliefs don't have much value.

Indeed. The content is barely ever examined. People still die for them though, so we could say if human life is worth anything, we pay a high price.

7 billion people sitting down to learn mindfulness in class rooms  should be the goal of our generation. We can get there if we are skilful in how we deal with those beliefs.

[Matthew]

Paying a high price for something without much value is pretty ignorant. Yes, a world of mindful people would be a result dude, with you there. Gotta get you own shit together, in a radical fashion, before being of the deepest value to the outside world.